Glad I don’t go to church there…
This is from Susie Smith.
I suppose this is more of a “how NOT to reach someone” story. I was at work last night and someone was talking about how it is obvious that in some famlies the children are in charge.
She was talking about a young family at her church who had a young daughter who sat in the pew chewing on her finger and how disrespectful that was. She went on about how there is church behavior and children should be expected to sit quietly and attentively.
I was listening and thinking #1. I am relieved that I do not attend her church. And #2. We had such a hard time getting our now 7-year-old to behave during worship.
He can be quite a handful and NOW he sits quietly and reads a book or plays with a quiet toy. But at first he was loud and we had to take him out repeatedly. I would leave church almost in tears nearly every sunday.
I bet there were people who had all sorts of thoughts about me and my parenting then. And plenty of people who wouldn’t approve of the book or the toys now.
We need to give each other the benefit of the doubt a little more. I was doing the best that I could. And if we see a parent struggling with a child’s behavior, then ask how to HELP.
I didn’t have the nerve to say any of this to the woman at work.
November 21st, 2006 · 22 Comments
Categories: OA Stories
Helen said
am November 21 2006 @ 8:27 am
Wow…I didn’t realize finger-chewing was that noisy. Maybe that child was singing a song at the same time.
I guess what I might try in a situation like that is a) empathize and say “Yes, it must be frustrating when you’re too distracted to pay attention to the sermon.”
Then put her on the spot and turn this from an abstract problem to a real one involving you, the person in front of her, by saying “I have to admit, I never was very successful at keeping my child quiet in church. What works to keep a child quiet in church can you give me any tips on that?”
And if she says something ridiculous then you can just say “Thanks” and walk away and let it go.
But maybe it will lead into a conversation that helps her see what it’s like to be the parent who KNOWS everyone is looking at them with disapprove, FEELS GUILTY about it, WISHES they had a way to encourage their child to keep quiet which leaves no permanent effects, and finally gets up and leaves, missing the whole thing rather than just being distracted.
Been there, done that, forgot that taking young children into church was on my list of things for which I’d been disapproved of by some other Christians
It’s worse if there’s a church nursery because then people don’t all understand why you might not want to put your child in there.
How about this one “The pastor gets distracted by babies crying”. I’ve actually heard that told to parents to discourage them from bringing children in.
April Terry said
am November 21 2006 @ 9:00 am
Boy, can I relate. I have spent many a time in church trying keep my child quiet. Does this woman have children?
I have to say, though, this is the problem with feeling that you have ownership of your church. Church is for children to learn about God. It’s also for those noisy teenagers. It’s also for that couple with all the tatoos. It’s for the man in pew #2 who sleeps through the sermon.
Helen said
am November 21 2006 @ 10:43 am
April, I’m guessing either she has no children or she has undergone that memory loss some people seem to go through when their own children grow up. Looking back, they forget what it was like and remember perfectly behaved children
Not everyone undergoes this but I have definitely run into some people who have!
Bruce Logue said
am November 21 2006 @ 4:31 pm
Stories like this make me really sad. We’ve all sat behind or in front of someone like this. They are primarily self-focused. That child’s crying is bothering “me.” That parent isn’t doing it the way “I” would. They should sit in the back so “I” can’t see the child and be distracted. Etc.
Helen, I like your idea. Anything that would help such a person to see how what they are saying sounds is good. Otherliness is learned behavior.
Jim Henderson said
am November 22 2006 @ 12:13 am
As a pastor who at one time preached alot and once I had gained some life experience I began to wonder how Jesus would feel it he had a noisy child around him. I couldnt picture him asking someone to quiet the child. I more imagined him taking a break from speaking until the parent made a change or the child quieted down.
Maybe I am being too hopeful
Helen said
am November 22 2006 @ 6:04 am
Jim, there are lots of things about which it’s hard for me to say “the Bible is clear” – because I read things which seem to conflict with one another.
However, when I think about what it says about Jesus and children I can’t think of any conflict there; every passage I can think of indicates that Jesus enjoys and loves children. There was that time when he remonstrated with the disciples who were telling people not to bother Jesus with their children; Jesus said “No, let the children come to me”.
And he said the worst punishment would be meted out to someone who offended a little child/caused a child to sin; and he said we need to become like children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
I could well imagine Jesus stopping preaching, if a child was being ‘disturbing’, going over to the child and starting to interact with the child so that the child would actually be ENGAGED with what was going on.
The Bible says at least once that Jesus couldn’t turn away from need. He would see the child’s need and I’m not convinced he’d be able to ignore it. The adults who are in a service don’t need to hear 30 mins of doctrine; however a child who is unhappy needs something they are not getting.
Mike O said
am November 22 2006 @ 10:26 am
She’d go CRAZY in a church we just served at. We helped with a homeless/drug-rehab center nearby, and they also have a church for the homeless/drug crowd. They said that many of the kids that they get on a Sunday morning are only there because the parents want to get rid of them for a couple hours so they can use. And they said that people who are easily distracted by kids who don’t sit still should never come to their church … these kids are street kids with no clue of how they “should” act. Not only do they not sit still, they run around (no parents). They fight. They basically are unrestrained. But they’re there. And some of these kids, over time, learn that Christians still love them and still accept them. And as they grow older, the politeness and other things like that just seem to come … at least for the ones that stick around. Many don’t because they get drawn back into their horrible worlds to live there instead.
Anyway, I’m just saying that chewing on fingers is a far cry from what this church deals with.
Jim is right … WWJD? I don’t know but I doubt he would have the child scolded or removed for being a child.
Laura M. said
am November 23 2006 @ 7:26 am
What a coincidence!
I just accidentally discovered this site, yesterday, where I was reading about the ebay atheist. This is my first time to intentionally visit this site, where the most obvious other area of interest to me is here in the Ordinary Attempts blog.
I am an atheist, and I just took my 7 year old daughter to church for the first time in her life this past Sunday. She is a very loud, active, and curious child, like most children her age. Luckily for me she was well behaved and quiet during most of the sermon, but began to get cranky and sleepy after awhile. As she began to sigh, loudly and at one point let out a huge yawn, I was mortified. Apparently church wasn’t nearly as exciting as she had anticipated it would be. This was especially embarrassing due to the U-shape of the pews which gave 2 thirds of the congregation a perfect view of us, and the fact that she was the only child present in the sanctuary at the time of the service.
This is a very liberal church as I would never, under any circumstances, consider taking my child to any other kind. (Well, not including weddings and other family type ceremonies). No one blinked an eye at my daughter’s behavior, and we were made to feel very welcomed once the service was over. I was very grateful for this, as I have no friends or relatives to attend church with, and I know no one there. I’m going to be stuck going (no offense to anyone here reading this) for awhile, as the only reason I was there in the first place was because my daughter decided she wanted to begin attending Sunday School.
Christians critical of the presence of children at service/worship should keep that in mind. I know there are many adults who only attend church for the sake (historical/religious education, socialization) of their children. If the children aren’t welcomed, where does that leave them?
Mike O said
am November 23 2006 @ 8:15 am
Thanks, Laura! I think our church would treat you the same, but I’m going to show your comment to my church leadership (I’m part of the leadership of our church, although not a pastor) because I’ve been trying to help them see that we’ve got to stop assuming “we’re all brothers and sisters here” on Sunday morning. Thank you SO much!
Helen said
am November 23 2006 @ 8:31 am
Hi Laura!
Thanks for sharing your experience in church with your daughter with us. I’m so glad you were made to feel welcome there.
I would love to have you join in the discussions on Conversation at the Edge too, if you’re interested. I host it along with Eliza, an atheist, who has recently been posting about her experience going to a Lutheran class offered to her community. (She’s going in order to learn about what they believe; so far she reports that she hasn’t heard anything which has caused her to be any less of an atheist)
Bruce Logue said
am November 23 2006 @ 11:48 am
Laura, I’m so glad you found us over here at OA. Thanks for your insights and review of your experience. Your comments are always welcomed. We’d also love to have you write about your experiences of trying to be “ordinary.” Thanks for checking out the site.
Laura M. said
am November 23 2006 @ 12:22 pm
Thank you, Mike,
You know, it’s really fascinating to find a Christian site that actually appreciates the views of atheists. I have to say this is a new experience for me. I’m from Dallas, Texas, and ATHEIST is a four-letter word here. You just clamp your mouth shut, keep your opinions to yourself, and ‘pray’ you’re not ‘outed’ in a publicly humiliating sort of way.
There are plenty of ‘fallen’ or ‘backsliding’ skeptics here. We’re just NEVER allowed to be honest and call ourselves atheists. And of course it follows that if we’re not even allowed to be honest about who we are, then the idea of Christians finding out what it is we DO believe is not considered either.
Laura M. said
am November 23 2006 @ 12:30 pm
Thank you also, Bruce and Helen.
I think I’ll take you up on the offer to join the discussions here.
I really can’t tell you how amazing I find this site !
Helen said
am November 23 2006 @ 4:01 pm
Laura, I’m glad you want to stick around!
I’m almost an atheist myself, by the way.
Mike O said
am November 24 2006 @ 6:58 am
Laura, I’ve met Helen and she’s a great lady. I think you’ll find her story fascinating.
I’m kind of in the same place you are, only on the other end of the spiritual spectrum. I am continually amazed at peoples’ ability to just be civil with each other here. We all have our views, and WHEN ASKED, our opinions are actually interesting to people who don’t share them.
I post once on Thursdays over on the eBay atheist site. Hope to see you there!
Jim Henderson said
am November 24 2006 @ 11:21 am
This is really working for me
Peter Walker said
am November 24 2006 @ 12:49 pm
Just to let ya’all know, I’m going to repost Susie’s story at ChurchRater.com because I think it’s particularly relevant to what we’re talking about there.
As an avid, lifelong nail chewer myself, I hope this anti-nail-chewing agenda doesn’t grow beyond this church. It’s a dangerous fundamentalist submovement, and as much as I’ve searched in scripture, I can’t find Biblical justification to ostracize the nail-biters.
I believe I was born this way and should be treated with respect.
David H said
am November 27 2006 @ 7:57 am
Gosh, my Dad’s from Alabama and even his hill-billy relatives seem to know atheist has more than four-letters.;-)
I have to admit then when I was younger and childless I was more like the complaining lady mentioned above. I went to a church at a Christian camp and the camp-workers’ children seemed to be all over the place. Some were on the floor in the aisle, at least one wandered all over the sanctuary during the service and several were very vocal on a variety of subjects not at all related to the service.
Having now spent some time raising two daughters of my own, I have to say I’m a bit from the other camp now. At the church we now attend we regularly gather together in the sanctuary for prayer during the middle of the service. A couple of Sunday’s ago, a four-year-old said something funny to his father as we were gathering. Dad tried to control his laughter, but it began to seep out as the praying began. Soon half the church was trying to choke back their own laughter, so prayers were punctuated with snorts, sneezes and a host of other sounds that would probably be better suited for a Three-Stooges movie screening than a prayer session.
Rather than be upset with the little boy or his father, many of his told him afterwards that we appreciated his moment of levity even at that time. Such things happen with families. And I always hope that God is able to laugh with me, but never at me.
Helen said
am November 27 2006 @ 1:48 pm
Laura, FYI your comments about church have been reposted here on our Church Rater blog:
Atheist rating
NCxian said
am November 27 2006 @ 2:47 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14136994/
I just stumbled across this article at MSNBC. Apparently, other folks are thinking about this child behavior “problem” and how different people perceive it. And it’s not restricted to behavior in church.
My own experience is like David’s. When I was childless, I thought children were generally brats and their parents should be drawn-and-quartered for not controlling them in public. Now, that would be me!
Laura M. said
am December 3 2006 @ 8:37 am
Thank you Helen, I had no idea. And thanks for the other recommendations. I’ve read your Almost an Atheist link and am in the process of reading Eliza’s
An Atheist In Lutheran Class entries. I also read Mike’s posts on the ebay atheist site.
Thank you all.
Helen said
am December 4 2006 @ 1:19 pm
You’re welcome, Laura!