2006 - The Year of the Atheist
By Jim Henderson
Off The Map is a pretty focused outfit. We pride ourselves on setting goals and striving to achieve them. As you know, in life there are things you plan for and things that happen to you. In 2006 we worked to achieve our goals but also got interrupted by God. His interruptions proved to be not only entertaining – but also strategic. God’s unplanned actions launched us into the national spotlight (for an extended 15 minutes :))
The Ebay Atheist
By now most of you know the story or read about it in the Wall Street Journal. In February of 2006 Off The Map hired an atheist. We won him on Ebay. Hemant Mehta was “selling his soul” on Ebay. Off The Map won his undivided atheistic attention for $504. A media frenzy followed culminating in an offer to write a book for Barna/Tyndale Books.
Jim and Casper Go to Church
Another twist followed. Hemant and my publisher could not come to terms so he went to work on his own book and we hired a new atheist and took him to visit 12 churches all over America. His name is Matt Casper. The book he and I wrote is the story of an ordinary Christian and an ordinary Atheist having a very unusual conversation as they take a road trip to visit America’s best and least known churches. “Jim and Casper Go to Church” comes out in April as does Hemant’s first book “I Sold My Soul on Ebay”. Who would have guessed that two atheists would be the ones God would use to gain Off The Map national exposure?
You Say You Want A Revolution
We have been working toward creating a “destination experience” a.k.a. a conference that is held in Seattle the first weekend in November. This year’s event You Say You Want A Revolution was our biggest success thus far. We nearly doubled our attendance from 2005 with over 600 tickets sold, we got closer to attracting our core constituency- young leaders and those who think young and we successfully created an appropriate amount of controversy to make people wonder what we might be up to next year. The dates are set for Nov 1-3 in Seattle. Brian McLaren, Diana Butler Bass, Ruth Padilla De Borst, Richard Twiss and Todd Hunter have all confirmed for this exciting event. Mark it down and plan to join us for this annual gathering of the Off The Map tribes.
Website and Blogs
Due to the online exposure Off The Map received as a result of the Ebay Atheist project (at the peak traffic hit 70K visitors) our internet traffic has doubled from 5K a month to close to 10K visitors a month. We now have a mailing list of 5000 subscribers and we launched several new blogs. Helen Mildenhall who came to read the story about the Ebay Atheist never left and today voluntarily oversees all of our blogs. She is without question our most important new (non) hire in 2006. We have however actually hired a Web Strategy consultant and a Web Support person to help us improve, maintain and grow Off The Map’s Blog Network in 2007
Investors
Q. Where does Off The Map get its funding?
A. Two sources. Events and Products (35%) Investors (65%). 2006 saw our most dramatic increase in new investors (tripled) in our five year history, many of whom made commitments for 2007 and 2008 as well. This is very exciting and tells us that Off The Map is gaining wider exposure.
Strategic Planning
Peter Drucker once said (what didn’t he say?) “We overestimate what we can do in one year and underestimate what we can do in five years.” Off The Map celebrated our 6th birthday in 2006. We are ready to do the work to identify what our special mission is. Due to our success a number of people and organizations are approaching us asking us to partner with them. Our problem now is learning what we need to say no to, which leads to my final Druckerism: “Know what your special mission is, so you know what to say no to”
At our Board retreat in early January we will spend a day with a strategic consultant to begin hammering out the specifics of what Off The Map’s special mission is and how God wants us to contribute to his larger story.
Stay Off The Map in 2007
Here’s how you can go even further Off The Map in 2007:
- Check out our Blogs
- Subscribe to our monthly ezine the Idealab
- Come to Seattle November 1-3, 2007 for Off The Map’s Conference
- Purchase the Revolution Conference DVD
- Invest in Off The Map
Off The Map is about to launch into an incredible growth spurt over the next five years. We will become a significant contributor to the redefinition of Christianity in our culture and beyond. We will influence thousands of young thinkers, practitioners and leaders. We will introduce them to veteran leaders who will help them invent the next future for followers of Jesus in this century.
We will expose thousands of frustrated followers of Jesus to an approach to evangelism that is doable, human and fun. They in turn will make hundreds of thousands of new connections with the people Jesus misses most and nudge many of them across the starting line toward Jesus.
We will become an influence in secular culture and help lead the conversation on spirituality and faith in the wider culture. More people will discover that Jesus likes them just as they are and not as they should be and many of them will choose to follow Jesus.
January 7th, 2007 · 49 Comments
Categories: Doable Evangelism
Russ said
am January 7 2007 @ 9:05 pm
You mention statistics regarding subscribership, event tickect sales, visitors per month etc. Am I to suppose that this information is any more significant than counting decision cards (for example)? This does not in itself indicate that anything worthwhile is actually being accomplished. Can you name some things that are definite indications of worthwhile accomplishments?
Marc Schelske said
am January 7 2007 @ 9:50 pm
Wow, Russ. That seems to be a thinly veiled accusation of some kind. Those of us who follow OTM are really interested in how the organization is moving forward. Those kind of numbers are useful information to us.
By the way, I suspect that if you’d spent any significant time around the OTM blogs, especially the discussions that arose during the two Atheist conversations, you’d already know beyond a shadow of a doubt that significant Kingdom work is being accomplished.
That’s the focus. You’ll never hear OTM hawking these numbers. This is just an annual “state of the movement” article. Seriously. Calm down.
Steve Grant said
am January 7 2007 @ 10:39 pm
Hi guys,
I have been a missionary for 30 years (just the title gives us bad press, often despised). Really, all my life i have just been a follower of Jesus. I want to sound a caution, which I hope is unnecessary, remain humble. Over the years, I have seen so many organizations lose it because thay became, “sucessful”. I really apreciate your experiences.
Steve
Friendly Atheist » Says Christian: 2006 was Year of the Atheist said
am January 7 2007 @ 11:01 pm
[...] According to my friend (and eBay-buyer) Jim Henderson of Off the Map, 2006 was The Year of the Atheist. As you know, in life there are things you plan for and things that happen to you. In 2006 we worked to achieve our goals but also got interrupted by God. His interruptions proved to be not only entertaining – but also strategic. God’s unplanned actions launched us into the national spotlight… [...]
Pam Hogeweide said
am January 7 2007 @ 11:46 pm
great round-up article, Jim, of OTM and 2006 an d beyond. Unlike Russ, I appreciate the stats on OTM, and that’s how I interpreted the numbers you provided, simply as stats.
I’m especially pleased to read the forecast for OTM, and I predict that your predictions will all be accurate. I look forward to the continued growth of OTM and trust that success is not the goal, but rather Spirit-empowered influence to break free that raging beauty aka The Bride of Christ.
I am honored to invest my words as a writer to an organization like OTM. Let’s just forget about the bumpy start we had, ok? (smile)
Jim said
am January 8 2007 @ 2:01 am
Russ - some people like stats some like stories- believe it or not this is the very first time we have ever offered this level of stats because we are primairly storytellers- (see our blogs for updated stories)
Steve - we are not even close to being successful ( I still paint houses if that helps keep one humble) neither are we afraid of it - but it is always good to be reminded
Pam - Thanks for the support and yes - you are a major reason OTM exists
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 4:43 am
Russ
Russ surely the point is, not whether we care about stats but why we do. One of the biggest things we’ve been about so far is different ways to go about evangelism. Traditionally, evangelism has often meant me telling others something. Noticing how my message is received is optional. Noticing whether it interests or alienates others is not required. Noticing whether we have done nothing but hurt our relationship with them because of the way we told them these things useful if we want to claim Jesus is pleased because we gave up something for him (a relationship).
We want to get away from this one-way type of interacting. In everything we do. Stats and ticket sales and visitors give us a way of ‘hearing back’ from people. They tell us whether we’re doing anything that interests them/seems meaningful enough to them to read our blogs and come to our conference.
So indirectly they are one measure of whether we are achieving anything worthwhile as far as other people are concerned. Our opinion that we are isn’t worth anything anyway, if others disagree that we are.
If you’re interested to know what others think in words, go read the comments here. Although I didn’t exactly ask “What has Off The Map done/what is it doing that is meaningful to you?”, various people answered my questions that way.
Pam, I share your trust that the goal is not success but rather MTWABP through MCBP (making the world a better place through making Christians better people). I wouldn’t be investing time in Off The Map otherwise.
Mark wrote:
Thanks Mark.
Actually Russ did spend some time on our discussion board in December. He initiated a discussion beginning on this page, about belief, which is several pages long. (His username there, as you will see, is ‘believemealso’)
Patricia Cahill said
am January 8 2007 @ 6:00 am
Hello,
I was guided to send you my website, as a viewpoint of God from my own personal experience. Peace and Love to all!
Janet Murphy said
am January 8 2007 @ 8:04 am
Hey, Off the Map, take a deep breath. I also see some undesirable things in your synopsis of accomplishments. You started with a kernal of truth..a creative God gave some creative people a new way of looking at things and a new way to serve Him. Awesome! it has always been a pleasure to read what the Lord does through you. But, honestly, I just didn’t get a good vibe reading this. “We did this, we did that, we pride ourselves on setting goals”, etc. I am hearing more “we” than “God”. Strategic consultant??? For what? God has been leading you just fine. You are becoming a business. Don’t become what the institutional church has become…yes, a business. So few of us can deal with success and national fame. Settle down, guys, and strive to be the great group of creative people led by a creative God. Best to you!
Mike O said
am January 8 2007 @ 8:40 am
This whole discussion about stats vs decision cards is interesting. We here at OTM go to a lot of effort to see things from the other guy’s perspective. There’s nothing wrong with knowing how it’s going. In fact, in Matthew 11:2-6 we have this story about John the Baptist:
What we have here is John the Baptist, the forerunner of Christ, a man who spent his ENTIRE LIFE saying “Jesus is the Christ - follow him” and now he’s in prison, cut off from all feedback, asking this simple question … “Is it working?”
And how did Jesus respond? He gave him stats. He gave him feedback and reassured John’s tired mind saying, “Yes, John. It worked! You mattered.”
So for OTM, I see nothing wrong with askign the question, “Is it working,” and getting the answer, “Yes. It seems to be.”
Mike O said
am January 8 2007 @ 8:50 am
Sorry, I started on one thought and then drifted to something else.
We here at OTM go to a lot of effort to see things from the other guy’s perspective - to know how we look from the outside. And now that we’ve gone to some length to justify why we look at stats, and how that’s not a bad thing, we have the opportunity to see the concept of decision cards and membership roles from the church’s perspective. When we see churches counting decision cards like Russ said, how do we see that? Is our knee-jerk reaction to assume that they’re looking at the wrong thing? Do we see an organization driven by stats (like Russ sees here), or do we see people who just want a little feedback?
Looking at stats and knowing how you’re doing is not a bad thing, even for churches. But being driven by them and taking direction from them (instead of God) is wrong. And who are we to say whether another organization is using them right (like us) or not?
Mike O said
am January 8 2007 @ 8:52 am
I didn’t mean to imply that we have done that here in this string. I’m just saying people need to be careful how we judge mainline Christian organizations that we’re not a part of.
Russ said
am January 8 2007 @ 9:42 am
Mike O said:
I think Mike got what I am trying to say. It is not that I am totally against stats, but they seem to have the ability to get people focused on quantifying and measuring rather than their primary objectives. So the question that has not been answered was:
Russ said
am January 8 2007 @ 10:04 am
By the way, just in case I may be misunderstood, I’m just looking for what some of the real testimonies really are. Statistics are used so much for promotional purposes nowadays that they are often interpreted as spin.
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 10:05 am
Russ, at least two of us have addressed your question about worthwhile accomplishments. Did you read our answers?
Janet, I hope Off The Map continues to be a great group of creative people led by a creative God. If you can pinpoint something specific you think Off The Map is doing wrong, please share it. I don’t see what’s wrong with having a strategy. I think the gospels indicate that Jesus was very strategic. He decided what he did and didn’t want to spend time on and what his emphases were going to be and he said no to everything else.
Maybe it’s part of God’s plan for Off The Map to talk to a strategic consultant. Why wouldn’t it be?
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 10:07 am
Russ, I truly have seen testimonies here and there are some mini-ones on the link I gave you.
Russ said
am January 8 2007 @ 11:01 am
Janet Murphy said:
I interpret what Janet said to mean that the organization tends to take on a life of its own and has the propensity to forget that the purpose of the organization is to facilitate the organism (the universal body of christ). Of course the business world does not have such an organism to facilitate so their methodology might not be best suited for such an organism.
Perhaps the real way to to judge what is being done is not by statistics but by observing actual accomplishments and asking if they are consistent with the actual mission of the organization. The organization is focusing inward when quantifying and measuring and the mission is totally outward others oriented. This is likely one of the driving factors behind why some organizations seem to so easily lose their bearings.
I appreciate the OA approach as a real departure from tradition evangelism methods insofar as introductions and establishing relational aspects are concerned. But when it comes down to it, evangelism involves changes to beliefs and commitment to change. These are probably best accomplished by the evangelist through love and obedience (not that any of us are particularly skilled in these areas). Not many are likely to change their beliefs on the basis of someone’s persuasive abilities alone. Most people will reserve the right to be the sole arbiters of their own beliefs.
Jim said
am January 8 2007 @ 11:12 am
Wow
not sure what to say about the stats controversy but since I am a veteran pastor I will attempt to defend the practice by using the bible.
Luke 16 - Jesus celebrated the incisive and shrewd managers accomplishments and certainly insinuated that his followers do likewise AND he remained uncomfortably silent about the his feelings about the managers motives
All that to say that
1) Stories move people to take action
2) Systems enable people to take action
Ex. Story:Pizzza commmercial - 8 layers of cheese for $8.95
Call to action - “call us now and you can have this in 30 minutes”
System- cook, oven, car, driver, insurance, boxes, uniforms,
lisa W. said
am January 8 2007 @ 11:41 am
Jim,
I love the way you break things down into bite sized pieces….
good-going on a great year.
2007 is going to be OUTSTANDING!!
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 11:44 am
Adding to what Jim said, every time a gospel author commented on the crowds Jesus was drawing, I see that as citing ’stats’ to make a point. And the point was that Jesus was connecting with people.
Which is why I think Off The Map cares about stats - they give some indication about that.
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 11:45 am
Lisa, you are part of the reason 2006 was a great year! I’m so glad I got to meet you because of Off The Map.
Russ said
am January 8 2007 @ 12:30 pm
Helen said:
Undoubtedly true. Alone they just don’t indicate exactly what was being done. I didn’t anticipate hitting upon such a sensitive issue when I asked what worthwhile was being accomplished. But I think it does demonstrate how quickly perceptions and beliefs are aggressively defended and justified which is a sure indication of sensivity in the particular issue regarding how “the church” should be built.
There is a rather large chasm that exists between what some perceive as the work of man vs. the work of christ in building this organism. This of course is one of the main aspects of this whole site that stresses approaches other than traditional which I think are profitable (or could be). Christ said “I will build my church” and others (including myself at times although I am not a permanent resident of that camp) are quick to point out how historically man has taken some things upon himself more than he ought or in ways that perhaps he shouldn’t. I suppose this is the “revolution” that everyone is referring to when using that term. Y or N?
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 12:46 pm
Russ, sorry, I don’t understand what the question is that you’re asking me (and others?) to say yes or no to.
I would caution you against labelling the issue as sensitive. I think the point is more that people are sensitive and, rightly or wrongly, the way you raise an issue can make a big difference in how others respond.
Is your position that Off The Map has not achieved anything worthwhile, or that you don’t know whether it has?
Russ said
am January 8 2007 @ 12:59 pm
Helen said:
My original intent was to ask a question not to take a position on the question that I asked. However, some of the subsequent responses raised in my mind a separate but related issue that transcends the goals of this site to that of the universal body of christ in general and the current view of the nature of the “revolution” involving practices and changes in the organization specifically.
Ben said
am January 8 2007 @ 1:44 pm
Wow! A lot of commenting over such a simply addressed issue. RUSS… your question was answered.
Russ said: Can you name some things that are definite indications of worthwhile accomplishments?
Jim said: Russ - some people like stats some like stories- believe it or not this is the very first time we have ever offered this level of stats because we are primairly storytellers- (see our blogs for updated stories)[Here lies your answer]
Jim and the team have shared numerous wonderful stories of what the Lord has done through their ministry. Just as has been stated here on this blog, stats show how a ministry, business, church, family budget, car, weight/food consumption - etc., are doing, and there are stats all over Scripture. Look all over the NT but look in the OT in Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, and Joshua, among others. Let’s not be so picky and judgemental over a stat update. A stat update won’t kill the OTM ministry or hurt your walk with Christ, so let it be and enjoy the proof of the work of the Lord through OTM.
Thanks for your update Jim. May God do many more great things through you all individually and as a ministry in 2007. I have a feeling it’s gonna be a wild one!
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 2:05 pm
Actually, Russ, ‘worthwhile’ is a value-judgment and Christians disagree on what a worthwhile accomplishment is.
We can point you to what people have said and tell you “these people think Off The Map has achieved worthwhile accomplishments”. But if your definition of worthwhile is different from theirs that will mean nothing to you anyway.
Would you like to share your definition of ‘worthwhile’ with us?
Mike O said
am January 8 2007 @ 2:27 pm
Well, I haven’t read everything here yet, but I can tell one story that has come out of off-the-map’s ministry … my own.
Because of Off-The-Map’s ministry, my church now has weekly OA stories being written by our own body (OK, we’re hitting about 50% ours and 50% OTMs, but still …), in September we started a group called “Enough Talk” specifically designed to get God’s people out there doing stuff rather than just the Rah! Rah! on Sunday mornings. And in February, we’re starting “The Front Porch” which is nothing more than a night out for people to come and meet interesting people from our community. Nothing churchy, just cool people like a serviceman who will be home from an extended tour of duty in iraq, a coalition of people doing charitable work in Rwanda, hopefully our mayor, maybe a local freelance book publisher, a chainsaw sculptor, superstock race car driver, and if I can swing it, a we have a survivor of Pearl harbor in our area. Wouldn’t you want to come out and meet him, given the opportunity, right around December 7th, the anniversary of Pearl Harbor?
So there’s one story for you. Off-The-Map was directly involved in the re-formation of me, hence my church’s ministry philosophy regarding the people Jesus misses most. And we’re doing it without changing who we are.
My pastor just preached a sermon yesterday called, “Isn’t she lovely” about how the church can be such a beautiful thing when she’s working like she should, but she can be so ugly when she’s not. In my opinion, Off-The-Map has brought my church back to a missing key element … our relationship with those in our community. And because of that, “she” is much more lovely today than she was in August. And I can only imagine what a beautiful creature my church will be a year from now!
Jim said
am January 8 2007 @ 2:47 pm
I love this idea- it is creative, courageous and sure to surprise the people you give this kind of attention to.
Mike- you are a doer - way to lead
Helen said
am January 8 2007 @ 2:57 pm
Thanks for sharing the neat things that you’re helping get underway at your church, Mike!
Re: other stories: I remember some powerful stories on the Revolution Conference blog by people who Off The Map had helped not to give up on Jesus.
Ben said
am January 8 2007 @ 3:25 pm
Or the two stories on the top of this page about the Ebay Atheist, and Casper. Those are great and ‘worthwhile’ stories. These stories are great examples of Jim’s coined term on this website, Doable Evangelism These stories and the one’s shared by Mike and Helen on this blog is what Doable Evangelism is all about.
Pastor Chris said
am January 8 2007 @ 8:41 pm
I’ve enjoyed watching the website and ministry grow over the years. When I have the privilege of teaching on evangelism for a renewal network that i’m a part of (about 2-4 times a year), i’m always mentiong Off The Map and Idealab. It’s part of my standard toolbox of resources at every event where i teach.
Most of my audience are people who have been burned by guilt driven evangelism attempts and evangelism is scary. It takes about 24 hours for them to warm up to me. After a few teaching sessions, i’m able to present OFF the Map as a resource for doable evangelism. We even have time during these events to go to a local area to discover how doable evangelsim can be!
Sure, you might push some limits, and occasionaly i have quietly disagreed, but i’m grateful for how you have grown, and how i’ve been able to use this as a resource.
Pastor Chris
Evangelism Coach
Pam Hogeweide said
am January 8 2007 @ 9:44 pm
ok, two things, Russ has inadvertently started a fuss about stats that morphed into an old-fashioned Testimony Meeting. Rock on.
Secondly, I am now obsessed with having some pizza. Thanks a lot Jim. So much for my New Year’s resolution. Next time could you use a healthier analogy? LOL
Russ said
am January 8 2007 @ 11:49 pm
Thank you for listening.
Helen said
am January 9 2007 @ 7:39 am
You’re welcome, Russ.
Johnny said
am January 9 2007 @ 10:30 am
It is sad that so much hype is to be made about an atheist and the church. I wonder If Hemant ever feels that Christians have been merely using him to learn about how to do church better, when we have a Savior who suffered and died for us and who said His word is sufficient for all things. If we want to learn about how to better worship God, He ought to be the one we should look to, and by doing so, the atheists around us will inevitably be affected. As Christians, we ought to love, pray and weep for their salvation but never pay, survey and act as if everything is a fun game to play.
May the Lord help us see how to better live through His own word. I agree we have a lot to learn, but I do not believe Christ would have us sit at the feet of those who deny He who is the better part.
Helen said
am January 9 2007 @ 11:17 am
Johnny wrote:
But Johnny, little children think everything is a fun game to play. And according to the Bible (Matthew 18:3) Jesus said:
Keith said
am January 9 2007 @ 1:59 pm
Russ,
You left a couple of my questions hanging on the the OTM Discussion Board … please give it another look and give me an answer, bro.
Jim,
Thank you for all your work/vision for OTM. Of all you said, this resonated with me the most: “More people will discover that Jesus likes them just as they are and not as they should be and many of them will choose to follow Jesus.” May God make it so.
IMO, I think the future of OTM will be very different than what it set out to be. The debate board is becoming less and less palatable for Christians (not me personally), and has been a very necessary sounding board for atheists. Honestly, Jim, I think your title is right on - OTM has benefited atheism a great deal this year (and I see that as a good thing). Atheists on the debate board and elsewhere are finding both common ground with Christians as well as battles worth fighting. They are becoming friendlier and more aware of the variety of Christians in this world. Perhaps OTM’s future is more closely linked with atheism than with Christianity. If this is true, it can be a good thing.
When you speak of young leaders, thinkers, and practitioners, I assume that you are referencing Christian leaders, thinkers, and practitioners - perhaps even specifically emerging ones. However, I think your real area of impact has been and will be leaders, thinkers, and practitioners of atheism - like TX, Isaone, Siamang, Helen, etc.
You said you are trying to determine what to say “no” to. Take this as one and only one vote from a young Christian leader. Say “no” to the stuff that tries to appeal to us young ministers and follow the atheist-Christian rabbit hole as deep as it goes. No one else is doing what OTM is doing in this area - while thousands are trying to impact young Christian leaders with new crap. And by the way, if some atheist wants to write a book where he takes a young Christian around and exposes him to atheistic thought & experience, I’m more than game. What OTM does best is put atheists and Christians in the same room unsupervised.
And the more OTM focuses on atheism, the more likely that “more people will discover that Jesus likes them just as they are and not as they should be and many of them will choose to follow Jesus.”
Again, Jim, thank you for OTM. I am a better man today than I was in April.
Ben said
am January 9 2007 @ 2:03 pm
I think it’s good to be reminded about the impact we can have on the atheist. After all statistics say that 85% of America claim to be Christian/believers of God, which is complete falicy. As has been claimed by several preachers/evangelists, I to venture to say that 13% of America may be a true follower of Christ. So what does this mean? Not only are there a mass number of non-believers and atheists that walk the streets of America, but our churches are sick - full of people who don’t have a clue, and pastors who cut and paste their own ideology into Scripture and call it truth.
Ben said
am January 9 2007 @ 2:21 pm
How sad it is that America has a sick church. ‘The church’ is supposed to be the healthy place for the sick to come to, but it has now become sick itself and very contagious. America has a high percentage of supposed believers because America looks at the church and sees that it isn’t much different then the itself. For example… I know a couple that claim to be Christian because they voted for Bush. It doesn’t matter that he looks at porn or is an alcoholic. As long as he and his wife go to church on Easter and Christmas and send a number of “Christian” fwds. every few months, then he “knows” he is heavenbound. Our churches are filled with much of the similiar. Sure we have the congregants that consistantly attend, but it’s “ok” to consistantly sin, because after all God is full of grace and will forgive everytime we do it. And many pastors follow this same pattern.
Russ said
am January 10 2007 @ 9:54 am
It may well be that in the coming outpouting of the spirit and subsequent harvest that there will be more “christians” and church goers saved than at any other time in history.
Russ said
am January 10 2007 @ 10:01 am
Change that to say, “It may well be that in the coming outpouting of the spirit and subsequent harvest that there will be more “christians” and church goers to enter the Kingdom than at any other time in history.
Russ said
am January 10 2007 @ 10:25 am
Keith:
I think that discussion has run its’ course and I’m not highly motivated to debate positions on beliefs although to some extent I realize that it’s unavoidable. As I stated in that discussion debating beliefs is like treating symptoms and not the cause of sickness. I prefer to keep those extents as small as possible. I just have an interest in beliefs insofar as how they are formed and the ramifications that they have.
Keith said
am January 10 2007 @ 1:09 pm
Thank you, Russ. Have you been able to learn more about how decisions are formed and the ramificatios that they have through your time at OTM?
Russ said
am January 10 2007 @ 1:31 pm
You know, sometimes it’s just hard to tell.
Rebecca said
am January 10 2007 @ 3:57 pm
Just a math reminder. Numbers are symbols and when we measure, we use numbers to help us tell a story. They are a means to an end and not an end in themselves — they have the capacity to open our eyes that we might see more clearly. Of course our greatest symbol is that of a cross and it breaks our hearts open to see God. When we understand symbols like numbers, as sacred, they open up the mysteries of the universe and fill us with wonder and awe. When we use them as weapons they can diminish and wound. It is always in our power to choose how they might be used. In your letter, I heard these numbers being used as a way of telling a wonderful story of blessing. Seeds that you planted six years ago are beginning to bear fruit, some of which is unexpected. We count in the language of the Holy Creator, sacred numbers and sacred geometry, showing forth the glory of God.
Janet Murphy said
am January 10 2007 @ 4:44 pm
Who besides a business uses a “strategic consultant”. Aren’t they pretty pricy? Hey, inquiring minds just want to know.
Jim said
am January 11 2007 @ 7:02 am
Lots of churches and ministires use strategic consultants. “pricy” is a relative term- they can help an org stay close to what they think God has called them to do- what’s that worth?
Helen said
am January 11 2007 @ 4:34 pm
Janet, as best I understand, here are some Biblical principles:
If you need help, have the humility to admit that and seek help from someone who can help instead of trying to go it alone.
A worker deserves his/her wages (Luke 10:7)
In view of these I don’t see what’s wrong with asking a strategic consultant for help and paying him/her for that help.
I recommend not letting the fact that businesses use strategic consultans confuse the issue. A good idea is a good idea whether businesses use that idea or not. A Biblical principle is a Biblical principle whether businesses abide by it or not.
Daniel said
am August 15 2007 @ 10:03 am
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article 2006 - The Year of the Atheist, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.