BTW – I do want to let you know that we both have the same heart and same passion in reaching out and being a light and example to those around us. In the next following years, as the Lord guides and directs, I will be used by Him to confront the “American Church” and the chaos, sin, and hypocrisy that abounds in “the church” today. Change is needed. Revival is needed.

I was just told by someone that it sounded like I was being a little defensive in my last post, and I want to let you know that that wasn’t my intent. I was trying to reach you on a more itillectual basis, concerning your previous comments. I pray that you understand that I’m not trying to stab at you, but to bring out points that should be discussed. Forgive me

I just figured out who you are. I apologize for speaking so caustically in my response to you. If I had known it was you I would have been gentler and forced myself to not give in to my tiredness. I do aoologize for my dismissive tone.

Ben – I think that you and Benjamin have a much more fruitful discussion going on here so I am going to drop out- The reality is that I have a number of other things I need to be writing about.

Hope you understand
Jim

Nice to see you’re back. Thought we’d lost you. sorry you’re sad about being back to work. That must suck.

You asked a couple intersting questions.

Why go to the extreme of not going to church, if you don’t like certian things that a church may be doing?

I don’t really see “not going to church” as extreme. Anyway, for me, it wasn’t so much about not liking certain things the church was doing as much as just not feeling a part anymore–the whole thing–the entirety of the church from it’s rituals to it’s culture to … name it, was making less and less sense to me. In a sense I reached a point where it was basically dishonest for me to go to church.

Why go the extreme of coming to the conclusion that we shouldn’t call ourselves Christians, but instead “Followers of Christ?

Actually, I don’t really call myself either.

Why go to these extremes? How far are we going to go with these kind of extremes, before someone says that maybe we shouldn’t even read the Bible, or even follow God?

I don’t read the Bible anymore, and god is very mysterious to me. I wouldn’t characterize myself as following him/her. and I wouldn’t characterize myself as extreme. In fact, I would say that I was a lot more extreme back when I was reading the bible and “following god”, and I don’t mean that with an entirely positive connotation.

How can we make an impact for Christ …

What does that mean–to make an impact for Christ? an impact can be a good thing or a bad thing. could we rephrase it “an impact for good”? I’m hoping to use my life to make an impact for good. I want to see suffering reduced in the world. I want to see a more sensible distribution of resources, so that thousands of people don’t die of starvation every day while I sit in this nice climate controlled building with my high speed internet connection. There’s an impact that I’d like to see, and while I think Christians can (and by god ought to!) be a huge part of this impact, I also suspect it’s going to take christians and muslims and buddhists and agnostics and so forth working together to make the sort of impact I’m looking for.

(stepping off soap box now)

thankyou for the questions.

you also said, “Ben you asked why God uses men like Moses etc- Right- why did he?”

Are you uncertian about the answer? After all, I asked you first. Why pose the question back at me if you yourself questioned my Biblical understanding?

You said,

“Of course we’re all sinners but when someone claims they are an examples of someone trying not to be a sinner and then LIES about it and only comes clean when they are CAUGHT (which is the club Ted and Bill are both part of) then they are MORE complicit than those who don’t make that claim.

That’s called being a gross hypocrite. I can identify with Ted as a fellow sinner that doesnt mean I respect him as a leader.”

I understand your point about Bill & Ted being in the same camp as hypocrites when it comes to lying about what they did. Isn’t it unfortunate that we are then, all hypocrites? We all lie, or have lied at one time or another, have we not? Just a fact that I thought I’d point out. However, given the leaderships roles they were in, they should not have lied.

Your next comment:

“BTW- your characterization (and certainty) about Ted being a Christian and Bill not being reveals more about your political views than your biblical understanding. ”

Interesting conjecture. Where do you base your certianty on this statement? Are you not being a little hasty on judging me for something for which you know not of?

Are you also claiming by this statement that you are for certian (beyond the shadow of a doubt) that Ted was not a Christian? If you read my posts more thoroughly, you will find that I made room for the possibility of Bill being a Christian, but from what I have gathered it appears that, it is but a label for him, not a life.

Of course we’re all sinners but when someone claims they are an examples of someone trying not to be a sinner and then LIES about it and only comes clean when they are CAUGHT (which is the club Ted and Bill are both part of) then they are MORE complicit than those who don’t make that claim.

That’s called being a gross hypocrite. I can identify with Ted as a fellow sinner that doesnt mean I respect him as a leader

BTW- your characterization (and certainty) about Ted being a Christian and Bill not being reveals more about your political views than your biblical understanding.

Benjamin Ady,

In your last post you said, “One of the major problems I have with the church is that it is so often a system where there is an outside and an inside, and the outside is dressed up very beautifully many times, and the inside, meanwhile, is full of both glory and horror, dazzling light and terrifying darkness. The church is often a community with a set of rules whereby we help each other to pretend that only the glory/light side is true, or that it is more true. In doing this the church makes god (or … ultimate reality) very tiny, and this is very sad.”

I agree with you here, brother. I, too, see this. Part of the reason I want to lead/pastor/evangelize in the church, is to open the eyes of the American church to this very sad reality. I guess my feelings are that if you want to see the church changed, you must go church. What I mean by that is, you can’t really change the church, or see the church changed by not ever going to church again.

I find it interesting how some Christians handle some of the criticizms. I guess it is a question for everyone here. It’s 1 question – in 4 parts:

Why go to the extreme of not going to church, if you don’t like certian things that a church may be doing?

Why go the extreme of coming to the conclusion that we shouldn’t call ourselves Christians, but instead “Followers of Christ?

Why go to these extremes? How far are we going to go with these kind of extremes, before someone says that maybe we shouldn’t even read the Bible, or even follow God?

How can we make an impact for Christ, by eliminating ourselves from the equation? Sometimes creating a new equation can work, but I don’t see how completely removing the equation from the problem, fixes the equation, or the problem.

For example: Christ said to be in the world, not of the world, but he still asked us to go into the world and preach.

Helen,
You said,
“The problem for me is that we have to justify this; that we have got into a situation where teaching and living are two separate things that don’t match. I would rather learn from someone’s role-modeling than them preaching something to me. And I have to wonder – if they can’t even live it themselves, how can I be expected to?”

Believe me Helen, I agree with you here – whole-heartedly. That is why Jesus is the perfect role-model.

With this, though, I would like to ask a few questions. I haven’t had time to read the article that you linked to, so I will just ask… Do you then have a “home church?” If you do, would this not be the same thing? Here is what I mean by that: Are you not still relying on someone’s humanity (the leader in your home church) to then be somewhat of that role-model? Would not this leader fit the description of living “two separate lives?”
Or, if you are leading your own walk with God, are you not an imperfect role-model?
If I may, let me bring another of my ponders to the table – How much of the Bible do you read? I meant the previous in regards to this: Do you read the whole Bible, or just some of the Bible? Or, to put it more plainly, do you only read the Scripture for which Jesus (or God) spoke (you know, the red-lettered parts of the Bible)? Because, if you read anything other in the Scripture, are you not relying on the imperfect (two-separate life live-r) tellings of God of the human author?

No Doubt that Scripture is God- breathed, and God-inspired, but most of it was articulated through corrupted, sinful people. So, where is the line drawn for you? I’d be curious to know.

Jim, why is it that you have yet to respond to my questions to you? Did I put you at a loss for words?