Doable Evangelism » Can Christians be Friends with Witches?

Can Christians be Friends with Witches?

4 Mar, 2007 Idealab Posted by: Helen

An Interview with Pastor Phil Wyman

with Pam Hogeweide

A prolific blogger, Phil is currently writing a book about his experiences as a pastor who loves witches. This May, The Salem Gathering is hosting a conference called God for People Who Hate Church. Featured speakers include Jay Bakker of One Punk Under God fame, Tony Jones of Emergent, and our very own Jim Henderson.
Phil Wyman lives in Salem, MA with his wife, Bev. You can read more about their dream to befriend pagans here.

Pam Hogeweide is a contributing writer for Off the Map. She has written about her friendship with witches at her blog, How God Messed Up My Religion. She lives in Portland, Oregon with her husband and two kids and is a self-employed cleaner, though she dreams of eventually being a full-time writer.

I love witches and pagans. I used to be freaked out about them, thinking they were all blood-drinking fiends who stayed up all night cursing Christians and sacrificing cats in the woods. Under a full moon. Naked. But then I found out a couple of friends of mine were into Wicca, a popular form of neo-paganism (and witchcraft) that some claim is one of the fastest growing spiritualities in America. As I researched their beliefs, trying to get my head and heart around their worldview, I soon discovered that I had a very inaccurate understanding of modern witchcraft. Most practitioners, like my friends, are peaceful people who deeply crave a connection to the Divine. They certainly aren’t drinking blood. (“That would be the Catholics,” jokes my witchy friend Michelle.)

So I am thrilled to introduce you to someone who is not only another Christian who loves witches and pagans, but he’s also a pastor. (Please don’t hold that against him.) He’s not your average stuck-behind-the-church-walls kind of spiritual leader. This man chooses to not only hang out with neo-pagans, but he and his wife, along with another family, uprooted from their California home to start a church in the witchiest city in America.

Salem, Massachusetts, notorious for its witch trials in the late 1600’s, Salem has flourished to become the unofficial capitol of witchery in the country. Its annual Halloween festival brings thousands within its borders. Phil and his church, The Salem Gathering, are right in the middle of it all, offering free Psalm readings, dream interpretations as well as hot chocolate and family-fun entertainment.

At first, Phil’s denomination-that-shall-not-be-named was all gaga about Phil’s unique and inventive outward reach to a group of people that most Christians won’t even eat dinner with. But over time, there came rumors and whisperings and a flurry of gossipy emails that raised questions about the wisdom of Phil’s modus operandi. He and the other leaders of his church found themselves subjected to an old-fashioned witch hunt where they were asked such questions as, “How can you be friends with witches?” to which they replied, “How can we not?”

Defrocked and ousted by his denomination of more than twenty years, Phil received tremendous support from his church and has continued to lead as pastor. (Read Phil’s account here)

Some wonder at the effectiveness of being chummy with people who follow pagan paths. If they’re coming to Christ, ok great, but what if they’re not? Phil makes it clear that he is not out to pull a bait-and-switch with his friends who are witches. They are not an evangelistic project. ”This is insidious, trying to convert us,” say some pagans.

“I don’t think people are targetable. I make friends with people and then we talk about life. And I think the life I find in Jesus is the most compelling thing I know, and I know that they might not,” explains Phil. “And I know, that for the entirety of their life they might not (be interested.) And I’m not going to give up on them or our friendship if they never do. We make friends and share our lives with each other.”

One of the problems about Christians freaking out when it comes to witches and pagans are the myths we associate with them. Myth number one: They worship satan. “They do not. Most of them don’t even believe in satan,” says Phil. Myth number two: We assume they worship a deity. “Most pagans define themselves as agnostic, or what I call mystical agnostic. Some don’t even practice spells,” continues Phil.
Myth number three: (my personal favorite) Pagans and witches are out to send curses against the church. “There are many of them who really think it would be an unethical thing to do. To some degree most pagans adhere to the Wiccan Rede, ‘And it ‘arm none do what thou wilt’” explains Phil. (Rede: pronounced “reed,” which basically means, Don’t hurt anyone)

Another myth about witches is that they practice their rituals skyclad, or au naturale. “Many pagans are as excited about getting naked in a group as a Baptist church quilting bee would be,” says Phil.

What it boils down to is that our response to neo-pagans and Wiccans in our communities is often a reaction of fear and superstition, typically fueled by misleading ministries who put out books and seminars with severe misinformation. “The fear that spending time with witches and neo-pagans might allow some dark force to gain access to my life is a superstition found among many Christian groups. The apostle Paul ministered in a highly charged pagan environment and gave us guidelines for dealing with the people in his culture, “ says Phil. “These guidelines had to do with intimate interactions such as eating together and the celebration of holidays. This shows us that day to day life, and the intimate interactions of living and working together, were part of developing ministry to pagans.”

I asked Phil for advice in relating to pagans about our faith. “Do not assume they are satanists,” began Phil. “Do not assume they practice some form of malevolent magic. Begin your relationship with someone who is pagan by believing the best about them – love believes all things – and that perhaps their reason for being pagan is noble. Understand that they may have been rejected or mistreated by other Christians,” says Phil. “Be willing to listen to them. Treat them with the simple respect you would desire to receive from them.”

Is it kind of weird to think about Christians and witches hanging out with each other?

“Everybody is weird. And we are weird and that’s why Jesus came because we’re all weirdoes. I just really love witches and pagans.” Me too, Phil, me too.

March 4th, 2007 · 74 Comments

Categories: Idealab

74 Comments so far »

Can Christians be Friends with Witches? » The Blind Beggar said

am March 5 2007 @ 12:21 am

[...] Pam Hogeweide conducts an interview with Phil Wyman who is pastor of The Salem Gathering. [...]
Brian said

am March 5 2007 @ 7:48 am

While reading this article I can hear Dar Williams in the background, singing:

“So the Christians and the Pagans sat together at the table,
Finding faith and common ground the best that they were able,
And just before the meal was served, hands were held and prayers were said,
Sending hope for peace on earth to all their gods and goddesses.”
(”The Christians and the Pagans” - Dar Williams)
Anna (age 11) said

am March 5 2007 @ 7:58 am

Cool! I have a friend who’s a witch and she is just a normal nice person.
I never even knew she was a witch till after a few years of knowing her.
I really like her. She doesn’t care if I talk about praying and stuff. We just talk.

Myth number one: They worship satan. “They do not. Most of them don’t even believe in satan,” says Phil.
———–
Ha! My uncle told me they get magic from satan, but he also thinks the government faked the moon landing and that stuff, so he’s not very reliable. He was also trying to get me to stop reading Harry Potter because he thought it would make me interested in witchcraft and stuff. Well, I think its just a cool book. Well, what do you know, I’m still not a witch.
Helen said

am March 5 2007 @ 8:43 am

Thanks for your comment, Brian.

Hi Anna, you’re very wise to think about whether people who tell you things are trustworthy sources of information.

It would be interesting to ask your friend if the witches in Harry Potter are anything like real witches (if she’s read the books). I bet she’ll say “not really”. And I bet most (or all) of the Christians who say “Don’t read Harry Potter!” have no idea what a real witch is anyway or why someone might want to be one. Or friends with one!
April said

am March 5 2007 @ 9:23 am

Since when was the Gospel exclusive? The good news is the testimony of our LIFE in Christ. I have trouble understanding the notion that by staying away from those who are different we will somehow maintain our “christlikeness.”

Honestly friends, we are sealed in the Spirit. That makes us equipt to be ourselves around everyone. I too thought of Dar’s song, which was given to me by my long time friend from college who is a witch.

My poor friend! It was harder for her to maintain our friendship through my early years in the church. Those were the years that well meaning believers convinced me to cling to the law, instead of Jesus. I shudder to think of the judgement she endured. AND I HAD BEEN A PAGAN!!! I guess she was the one walking in grace! LOL

If we are spending time with Jesus and geting filled up we should have His love. That is the Gospel of Peace. Peace draws all men. BUT we should not love people because we want them to do anything (ie change). Hopefully we love because He first loved us and we can’t NOT love people!

Yes, that includes Wiccans, Satanists, or anybody whos view are contrary to yours.
Phil Wyman said

am March 5 2007 @ 10:07 am

Thanks for the positive comments. It is nice to know that there really are Christians who see the mission of Jesus in peaceful, loving, graceful terms.

Grace on you all,
Phil
Jim Henderson said

am March 5 2007 @ 10:27 am

Rock on Phil
Michael said

am March 5 2007 @ 1:39 pm

Now how am I going to go about being a Christian if I cant judge everybody else and decide for myself who is going to heaven… I mean what would even be the point

but seriously, great article, great comments… love Phil’s regular blog (and there is some really thought provoking stuff about christians and sex, too, folks…

and thanks to Webb Kline on Stumbling into the Kingdom for connecting me with all these diverse folks who love Jesus in an authentic way

I realize, too, I gotta get Jim’s book

peace
Mick
Carlos E. Zeisel said

am March 5 2007 @ 2:00 pm

This article is great, telling it like it is.

I am a member of the Gathering and their outreach and community have transformed my life. I have even tattooed the emblem of the church on my arm as a sign of true affliation and honor.

Que Dios Los Bendiga
John W. Morehead said

am March 5 2007 @ 2:08 pm

Phil, good to see you getting the word out and correcting the misinformation about Witches, Pagans, and your own ministry among them. Keep up the good work.
Hank said

am March 5 2007 @ 2:30 pm

Hey Phil
Blessed Be.
And Blessed Be the name of the LORD.
See Ya in Church

Love ya!
Jim Henderson said

am March 5 2007 @ 9:29 pm

Welcome all ye Gatheringites

Thanks for dropping by and be sure and keep coming back
John Smulo said

am March 5 2007 @ 9:46 pm

Great interview Pam and Phil!
Pam Hogeweide said

am March 5 2007 @ 11:13 pm

Thanks John. Great to see the response.

Has anyone out there in cyberspace land had a change of mind about being friendly with a pagan or witch as a result of Phil’s interview?
Jim Henderson said

am March 5 2007 @ 11:22 pm

I dont think I know any to be friendly with.
Helen said

am March 6 2007 @ 9:55 am

Jim, you can find some local witches groups here:

The Seattle Witches Meetup Group

About pagan/Wiccan religion

Just a guess - but I think it’s possible Rachelle might know some, given the circles she moves in.

Anyway, you’ll be meeting some in May at Phil’s conference, right?
Jim Henderson said

am March 6 2007 @ 2:47 pm

I forgot about Rachelle - of course she knows some witches

I will meet more witches than a Christian is supposed to know when I got to God for People who Hate Church Conference in May
Gene said

am March 6 2007 @ 6:32 pm

What a beautiful article. As a Wiccan, considering some of the hateful and strident baloney I have seen written and said about us, this piece nearly brings me to joyful tears. Thank you both so much.
Pam Hogeweide said

am March 6 2007 @ 7:03 pm

Gene, I am so glad you stopped by. Thanks for your comment. Sorry you’ve had so much crap written about your spirituality.

Though I cannot affirm witchcraft, I do respect other people’s paths and recognize that we are all hungry for truth. And it is for this reason that wiccans and pagans are among some of my favorite people to talk with. i hope you read my blog link at the beginning of this story about finding out two close friends of mine are witches. I think you’ll like it.
Jim Henderson said

am March 7 2007 @ 11:04 pm

Gene

Thanks for being open minded enough to drop by, kind enough to extend a measure of trust and transparent enough to tell us how it impacted you.
Jessica said

am March 11 2007 @ 11:19 pm

Hi, Pastor Phil

Terrific article.

But just had to add my two cents here.

Not all witches are Pagan, Wiccan , Druidic, Alexandrean, Satanic, etc……Believe me, I love people, too.. Pagans, Muslims, Christians, Bhuddists..I love them all…because Christ tells me to love my neighbor, and this is, after all, a small planet.

I have friends from ALL paths.

I am a Christian.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, I believe in the Holy Trinity, I believe that Christ left the throneroom or Heaven, was born of a virgin, lived a perfectly sinless life, shed his precious blood and died on a cross as propitiation for the sins of mankind. I believe in the bodily resurection of Jesus. I have professed Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and confessed to Him alone, and with all sincerity my sinful nature. I have asked Him to come into my heart and SAVE ME… from eternal damnation in a Godless Hell.
I look forward to the rapture of the church and to spending an eternity with my beautiful, wonderful savior…just like every other Christian.

I also practice the craft of the wise.

I am very upset with folks telling me I am going to hell because I believe in magic and practice the craft….

Especially when I know full well that should I swing over the pit of Hell on a shoelace singing “Blessed Assurance” with bells on my ankles…Satan Himself couldn’t make me fall in…

No, not because I’m any more wonderful than any one else on this planet….. …But rather because I have JESUS LIVING IN ME and I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God.

I am also psychic, read Celtic Tarot cards, have a great reverence for nature AND THE FORCES THEREIN, practice herbology, smudge my house,
use astrology, read runes, cast spells, do candle magic, use crystals, follow moon cycles, light insence when I pray, and believe that human beings are souls in bodies comprised of energy..
( remember the atom?) and as such, can use that God Crafted energy to manipulate universal energies which can, in turn, produce manifested change in the physical realm. This is magic.

This is Witchcraft!

And I’ve been practicing it for quite some time…

I am a witch.

I believe that if you are responsible with the practice of magic, God has absolutely no issue with it. After all, he created all of the universe for His Glory, and he created us to serve Him…

He also gave us minds for thinking, the gift of discernment, and individual talents and callings for His greater purpose.

I believe that my calling is to help people. I believe that God gave me the gift of second sight. I believe that he gave me a very special, spiritual gift of understanding and that I am supposed to use that gift. Even if some people don’t understand it.

In Christian circles, this might be called the “gift of prophesy…”
But when you are a witch, people call it “Evil…Divination…Sorcery…
Wicked…Satanic.”..and that’s unfortunate.

I am not the only Christian Witch out here. There are thousands of us worldwide.

People fail to realize that the word “witchcraft”, which literally translated means “the craft of the wise,” is not even IN the original Hebrew, Greek and Latin translations of the Bible.

But in 1611, the translators of the ancient texts, though very meticulous, did stumble over some words that could not be translated with 100% accuracy into old English.

Since you are a Pastor, I’m sure you know what they are…..If not, I do..and I’d be happy to share that with you or anyone else who is curious….

P.S…You are so wonderful to do this for people…and, if you ever want to talk more about witchcraft with a Christian Witch, I am happy to oblige.

In the meantime,

It’s nice to hear that not all Christian Pastors are afraid of witches.

It does my heart good to think that there are nice people like you who understand

God Bless You !

J
Danielle said

am April 5 2007 @ 9:41 pm

Wow what an amazing article!
I am a pagan witch, but i love the message of peace and love that comes with christianity. It’s not a religion i personally believe in but i love it all the same!
Over the years i have had some truly upsetting comments from people who profess that they are christian, and it’s just really heart warming to know that there are christians in the world who are truly loving and accepting.
Wouldn’t it be a lovely world if everyone could just get along regardless of their faith or personal beliefs?
Thankyou guys, blessed be and god bless you all!
Brad said

am May 7 2007 @ 7:47 pm

This column is about Christians and Witches being friends. I can live with that (for mature Christians).

However, when Christians talk about becoming witches with the blessing of Scripture I want to say, “no way!” In the wisdom of doable evangelism I say, instead, “how?”
DoableEvangelism » Blog Archive » Send Phil To France said

am July 15 2007 @ 11:23 pm

[...] Phil Wyman is one of the most courageous followers of Jesus I know. [...]
claire said

am July 16 2007 @ 12:54 pm

hi i got asked this question on my blog… can anyone here answer it with me???

How is using the power of your mind demonic? Psychics, in some circles, get accused of using the ‘darkside”- yet people here talk about following voices and dreams about or from God and that’s okay. I don’t get it. If God made us, then he also made our brains which are capable of fascinating things….bending forks, levitating, seeing the future, healing people….
I will never understand (unless someone here can help me) how Christians can pick and choose what gifts are from God, and what is from Satan. I will never understand why it is okay for a Christian to heal with their hands, but not me with my Reiki. I will never understand why Christians are allowed to predict the future through voices in their heads but psychics are not. anyone?

thanks!
Steve said

am July 17 2007 @ 3:51 pm

Hey everyone!

Love the posts here! I am the lucky dude who got to step into leadership of the church that Phil left when we planted him and the others out in Salem in 1999. So I can say without question that Phil not only loves Pagans– he loves people. I have a bunch of them in our church whose lives bear the fruit of that love.

First, let me say that I appreciate beyond words the effort that you’ve made, Jim, to help the Wymans get to their retreat this fall (see the link in comment 24 of this thread for more). They have really been through the wringer lately and desperately need healing and refreshment. Think of how cool all of you who have commented think what Phil and others are doing to break down walls of ignorance and spiritual bigotry. If you are able to help Phil and Bev, you are investing in just that– the breaking down of walls…

OK, sales pitch over! Whew! I am interested, Jessica, in more info. You mentioned the original texts as pertaining to practitioners of the craft of the wise. I haven’t done a word study on that, but I’ll bet you (and Phil) have. Could I cheat off of you and get the scoop that you have to offer?

Also, Claire: I hold a somewhat different view on the workings and power of the mind/soul than many in the scientifically skewed West. I found a profound insight, from an Eastern worldview in Watchman Nee’s “The Latent Power of the Soul.” He was a Chinese Christ-follower who understood that we are wired for more than many of us understand. A worthwhile read…

Sorry for such a long post. Great reading the comments–keep ‘em up!

Steve
claire said

am July 17 2007 @ 5:56 pm

hi steve, thanks heaps for getting back to me - i will try to get ahold of that book, i have heard of watchman nee, but never read any of his work… i have attempted to answer it on my blog, any comment u could make on tehre would be appreciated… http://fireball.lifewithchrist.org/permalink/33930.html

ps so impressed with your church heart - is awesome!
claire said

am July 17 2007 @ 5:58 pm

just another question, from me… post-meeting-jesus - what do those who were/are pagans “do” then - and how do they see what they did “before jesus” - i hope u get the heart of my question….
Jackie said

am August 15 2007 @ 4:04 pm

This was a good article to read. I have been a Christian for many years. I believe that it is possible for Christians to be friends with witches. What has stuck in my mind is the fact that a personal God loves all of us. That same God desires all people, to become part of his spiritual kingdom, through faith in Jesus Christ. The decision to become part of God’s kingdom is based on free choice, not a forced choice.

Jackie
jackie said

am August 15 2007 @ 5:08 pm

It is really great what Pastor Phil and his church are doing to reach out to Wiccans.

Jackie
Jackie said

am August 15 2007 @ 5:15 pm

It is great that pastor Phil Wyman and his church are reaching out to Wiccans.

Jackie
Jackie said

am August 15 2007 @ 5:38 pm
Adriano said

am September 3 2007 @ 8:46 am

I’d like to see where it says in the Word Of God, thou shalt only be around other Christians? Or don’t be friends with people of different religious backgrounds? It makes me laugh to think that I used to believe that witches were satanists and animal sacrificers! My best friend is a Pagan or Wiccan and she is the coolest, most open, loving, open minded and spiritual persons I’ve met, shes even had the same spiritual dreams and experiences as me, only I feel Jesus and God and she says she feels her spirit guide and that she believes in Heaven the same as me and Holy angels and God as the creator, I don’t think there is much difference in what they believe, Pagans believe in Love and Forgiveness just as much as any God fearing Christian does, so to all you Judgmental narrow minded know it alls you so called Elders are only condemming yourselves when you judge others according to your Old Testament ways, you are like the hypocrites wanting to be seen by everyone around, the way you think and live isn’t anything like the way my Christ and Saviour commanded me to live, God loves all his children equally Jesus Christ died for the sin of ALL Mankind! Yes were all going to paradise when we die, don’t believe in Hell it’s a lie! its just a way into scarring you into emptying your wallets into the money basket! God is a Lover not a hater and a liar but a Loving Father who loves us all, what loving Father is going to turn down his own Child? Love and Respect to you all don’t forget Trust in Christ, Peace xx
Adriano said

am September 5 2007 @ 7:48 am

All my life I have been searching for the truth about what God really wants, I have fasted several times in my life to get closer to the living God, and for some reason he has always brought me very close to people who believe in wicca for some reason, and these are very very close and special dear friends of mine some closer than most my family, I can talk to them about any subject or matter religious or political, and the outcome is always God loves us all so who cares what the narrow minded stuck up minority facists think or say Our Creator will judge them accordingly for their perverted lusts and hypocrisy they have brought upon us all God’s beloved children, anyway leave the judging up to the Father, I ask in Jesus’ name that there will be a stop to porn being so easily accessible to our children, we all know we’re in the End Times but we must still pray keep praying for God to stop the Evil in the world he is power, have faith people the Light is Much more powerful than the dark show the world that good will reign on the Earth one more time in Jesus Name Amen.
Adriano said

am September 5 2007 @ 8:06 am

Also, Satan does not know the future, only God Almighty knows the future, this is for all you people out there who can tell the future who hear voices and have dreams and experiences of the near or distant future, how can it be the devil when he doesn’t know the future it is revelations from God Almighty only he can tell you the future, Blessed Be, Amen.
Pam Hogeweide said

am November 9 2007 @ 4:09 am

wow. i haven’t popped by here for awhile. great to see the response continue on here for Phil and his church and how they are loving pagans and inspiring the rest of us to do the same.

thanks to everyone, especially our pagan friends, for hanging out with us.
Kate said

am November 20 2007 @ 6:07 am

I accidentally stumbled onto this article while surfing the web. Let me just say it is so beyond refreshing to see Christians actually being Christian. I was raised Roman Catholic, but have been a practicing pagan (Wiccan) for almost 10 years.
Like others who have posted, I had some negative experiences with people purporting to be “Christian” who told me that I was on the express track to hell for my beliefs. Didn’t even matter to them that I don’t believe in hell…
But as far as I can recollect from Sunday-school, Jesus hung out with some pretty unsavory characters: theives, prostitutes, etc…but he also said to love everyone, no matter what. And that includes people who believe differently than you.
So, thank you again for taking the time to see the beauty in other paths and for respresenting the best of your own.
Blessed Be!
Randy said

am November 20 2007 @ 12:28 pm

Thanks, Kate. Your kindness is encouraging to those of us who are imperfectly following Jesus our Leader. We have much to learn and repent of, for sure, but there does seem to be some small movement in the right direction (at least in my own life).

Keep hanging out with us!
Gemma said

am November 30 2007 @ 8:55 pm

This is very commendable. I myself was never a witch or a Wiccan but I did practice astrology for many many years and delve a wee bit into New Age philosphy. Metaphysics etc. Although the metaphysics I studied taught Jesus Christ with a different twist. I was always told by Christians what I was doing was Satanic. I met a couple Wiccans because of frequenting New Age stores and classes. They were nice and seemed to be very spiritual with their philosphy. I never met one that didn’t like animals especially cats. I have now totally denounced New Age philosphies and have gone back to my Christian roots as I have always known and believed Jesus Christ is the only Truth. I would like to meet others who have been into New Age, Astrology, clairvoyents, mediums..etc and are now living the True Life.
Beth said

am January 28 2008 @ 8:01 am

Wow. Thanks for blowing my mind. In an entertaining way, no less!
Mandy said

am January 29 2008 @ 9:15 pm

Jessica, that was one awesome article. I was about to type the same thing but you said everything for me, and for every practicing Christian Witch in the world. I love Jesus Christ above all others, revere Mary as the Queen of Heaven, and I practice the craft of the wise,read the tarot, and I am a reiki healer. Some of my best friends are Wiccans and Pagans, the most gentle loving souls one could meet. There is no reason that all of us cannot learn and grow together. I have learned much from my Pagan and Wiccan friends, and I am thankful for them, and for those like you!
Blessed Be!
Mandy
Mandy said

am February 1 2008 @ 9:57 pm

Merry Meet Beth,
I think you missed the point of Jessica’s article. There are millions of people living the True Life in Christ that practice the gifts He gave us. I have read the cards for people I have never met, and told them from the outset that Christ guides my readings. I am only a vessel He uses. People that never believed in Christ before started going to church, as He receives the glory for the accuracy of those readings. The cards reflect many Bible stories, such as The Tower, and many of us use the cards, astrology, etc. to bring people to Christ.
It is interesting to note that the first ones to follow the star to worship Christ were astrologers, (magicians in some Biblical translations.) Anyway, everyone has the right to their own path and I am very glad that you are comfortable in your path with Our Lord. Please remember that all of us are different, but those of us who worship Christ are brothers and sisters in Him.
Blessed Be!
Faery
LInda Rae Collins said

am February 4 2008 @ 2:29 pm

Hi Phil,

I totally beleive in loving people where they are… and when I was running a home for teen moms I encouraged the women to bring over their friends who were into paganism and the occult. I would prepare a meal and we would have open discussions.

I found that they have as many misconceptions about Chrisitans as we do about them them.

My granddaughter is studying pagan beliefs and has turned her back on Christ. We have welcomed her friends and are noth threatened by her desire to explore spirutual beliefs.

I have to say, the results in her behavior since she has been pursuing these beliefs, have been very negative. We taught her to treat every individual with dignity and respect. She and her group of friends are into vengence. It has been very hard to watch.

Do you have any words of wisdom for me?

Linda Collins
Denver Co
Phil Wyman said

am February 4 2008 @ 11:01 pm

Hi Linda,

I have to say that although I am not surprised by the vengeance issue, I am disappointed. Typically those who walk Pagan Paths are more peaceful. Yet there are certain factions which believe that the way of the Witch is darker and more vengeful.

If I were in your shoes I would begin to learn to speak her language. Perhaps some reading on the subject would be helpful. Margot Adler wrote a book which was a Doctoral study on the sociology of American Neo-Paganism back in 1980 I believe. It is still fairly accurate, and a good read on the subject. Margot is a Pagan herself, so remember it is coming from that perspective, but it is fair minded. It is called “Drawing Down the Moon.” A second read which might help is Ronald Hutton’s book “The Triumph of the Moon.” It is a history of British Witchcraft, but still helps to get a feel for the cultural distinctives.

If you can talk their talk, and are willing to ask questions openly, you might find an ability to speak life into their lives.

Understanding things like The Three-Fold Law, and the Wiccan Rede (which you can Google easily) may help as well, but then if they are really into vengeance they may reject those laws of the Witch, and work in darker arts. I know many Witches who are appalled by vengeance, and sought the craft for the purpose of bringing positive change to the world. I also know Witches who are into vengeance, and I work to show them the power of love, and peace. This power is available to all of us, Christian or not, and even though it is the way of Jesus, it still proves itself to work in every situation. Do not be afraid to teach the way of peace - “blessed are the peacemakers….” This can be done without the typical preachy Christianity, which is despised by many Witches.

Please feel free to contact me through my blog at http://squarenomore.blogspot.com if you have more specific questions as you pursue being salt and light to her.
Randy said

am February 4 2008 @ 11:18 pm

Phil,

Thanks so much for stopping by again and sharing your insight and wisdom! I was just thinking I needed to email you about the renewed conversation here, but I guess you got the vibe. You rocketh, bro.

I was just having a conversation with my 21 year old daughter about salt and light about 30 minutes ago (I kid you not). It occurred to me that too much salt or light can become distasteful and blinding, which is what most of us evangelical types tend to think we’re supposed to be. A little salt, at the right time, makes everything taste better (not worse). A little light is more than enough for those who have adjusted to the dark. Too much light can be just as damaging as too much dark (like blindness), and too much salt ruins everything.

Now if I can just get a little help deciding how much is enough, I’ll be alright! I suppose no salt is better than too much, and it may be better to close your eyes and hold hands with someone who has long been in the dark than to hit them in the eyes with a spotlight.

This is a long digression…I apologize. Just got me thinking, which is what you have been good at for many of us, friend.
Helen said

am February 5 2008 @ 9:03 am

Phil, thanks for taking time to answer Linda’s question.

Randy wrote:

I suppose no salt is better than too much, and it may be better to close your eyes and hold hands with someone who has long been in the dark than to hit them in the eyes with a spotlight.

Randy, I think of the right amount of salt as a metaphor for meeting a need - if you hold hands with someone who’s ‘in the dark’ and that meets a need of theirs I wouldn’t say it’s ‘no salt’. In fact it could be the perfect amount for that day.

As for having to close your eyes to do it - to me that’s what grace is all about. It’s about - if there is a burden to be borne, I will bear it (by closing my eyes, or otherwise exercising the discipline of restraint/intentionality) rather than making you bear it by me telling you exactly what I disapprove of, in you.

Linda I expect your granddaughter knows its hard for you to watch - people tend to pick up on that. I love Phil’s idea of entering your granddaughter’s world because it’s just what Jesus did. He didn’t stay in heaven and say “Come on up here (if you can)”. Instead he came to earth and entered our world. Doesn’t the Bible say he became like us so we could become like him? Randy’s picture of closing your eyes and sitting with someone who’s in the dark - maybe that’s a really good analogy for what Jesus did when he came to earth.

If you learn a bit about what your granddaughter is into then that will give you something to talk about with her and also will show her “Wow, my grandmother cares enough about me to read this stuff that I know she doesn’t like” It will hopefully build a new or stronger relationship bridge between you. If you want her to come back to Jesus I think she will need to be given reasons to do so - which include the assurance that she is loved and accepted by people who claim to be followers of his.
Randy said

am February 5 2008 @ 12:47 pm

Great advice, Helen…especially for someone who keep claiming to be “almost atheist”. And thanks for picking up on my carefully crafted analogies and inferences to the incarnation.

Phil…when are you going to write a book? There aren’t too many people who have your experience or knowledge in this area (you may be the only Christian pastor in this category).
Pam Hogeweide said

am February 5 2008 @ 10:05 pm

Phil…when are you going to write a book? There aren’t too many people who have your experience or knowledge in this area (you may be the only Christian pastor in this category).

I keep asking the same question!
Kate (the second) said

am February 6 2008 @ 2:10 pm

Wow. I had a boyfriend who was into witchcraft. and ya know, he went to church on Sundays! He was a sweet guy who had a love for witchcraft, I think, because it allowed him to silently rebel against his overruling father (ie; he missed a piano practice because he was playing our piano at my house and was forever forbidden against seeing me outside of school thereafter):( So he got into witchcraft. It did not change who he was, nor the fact that he enjoyed going to church on Sundays, nor the fact that he was still him. He said “It’s just an interesting hobby of mine. Sure, it probably is more then a hobby, but so what?” And ya know, when he intro’d me to his other pagan friends, that were all nice and no one tried to “stir the pot” or practice voodoo on me. LOL they are really nice people. I don’t see why so many Christians would rather hang them or ostracize them then rather befriending some very nice, sweet people. I just don’t get it. :S

Oh well. Cheers to the string of people here who do enjoy the company of nice people!
Cynthia said

am February 7 2008 @ 1:06 am

I was really interested to read the article and the numerous comments which have been going on for months! Just shows how important an issue it raises. I am an Indian (Committed Christian, u cd even call me a doable Evangelist)living in Bangalore and am married into a Hindu family, though my husband and most of his immediate family became Christians in the last decade or so, along with aobut 50 of the extended family. While I have really no idea about wiccans and the kind of magic and witchcraft the writers talk about, I must say that in India people live with the reality of Darkness on a day-to-day basis. There are very good reasons why there is so much interest in Jesus, Christianity and the Church among the large numbers of poor and marginalised in our country. Believe me they see the Church as a refuge from the evil they have experienced in thier lives! A (white) Theology Professor from South Africa also confirmed how similar things exist in the African experience. How do these realities tie in with those that you write about? I am really curious and would welcome an answer. I love Off the Map and its attitude.

Cynthia
Cynthia said

am February 9 2008 @ 9:01 am

Hello? Anybody out there? I’m still eagerly awaiting any responses to my post! Thanks in advance for responding!
Randy said

am February 9 2008 @ 1:43 pm

Hello, Cynthia. Blogland is usually quiet on weekends, for some reason…and not as speedy a way to communicate with others as email or the phone, in general. Good to hear from Bangalore! I have no real idea where that is, except INDIA, but I do know that’s a LONG way from Sparks, NEVADA!

I’m not really the guy to answer your question, either, but I wanted to at least acknowledge your voice here. It may take a few days for others to notice your comment here and respond. I will try to contact Phil Wyman, the guy who is responsible for this conversation, and Pam Hogeweide, the author of the first story, to let them know you’ve got a question.

BTW…have you heard of Sunil Sadar? He is a good friend of ours who works with Stop Caste Now and Truthseekers International. I’ve pasted a couple of links about him here for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVJ8ICsm6wM

http://truthseekersinternational.org/

Anybody want to tackle Cynthia’s questions?
Ronnie said

am February 10 2008 @ 7:04 pm

In the article”Can Christians be Friends with Witches?” Phil commented “Begin your relationship with someone who is pagan by believing the best about them – love believes all things – and that perhaps their reason for being pagan is noble.” the scripture of not being yoked with unbelievers come to mind, where what do holy and unholy have in common.

Phil is saying we can have friendship in common. I do agree there needs to be compassion and understanding on the believer’s part but “believing the best about them” it is simply this truth, man is sinful and needs Jesus, sure they fill the void with whatever. Jesus did not teach that we must build a relationship, that is a culture taught message. For example, The woman at the well, Jesus by Spirit gave Him insight, yes, he spoke with her, but He spoke outright and told her the truth of her condition and what she was thirsting for. It is humanitarian thinking to believe we need to lay a foundation, this case relationship, in order to bring them to the real foundation Jesus Christ. Yes, we need to talk with people and share, but looking for commonalities to relate is dangerous.

I am not saying God can’t work that way, but foremost, man must not be afraid to speak about Christ in love and allow others to not want anything to do with you. We are required to share, give the seed,but we are not God, we must let God draw men, as we speak the Word. Our testimony has some validity but even in the testimony it should be about Jesus. Being a friend to sinners sounds good to the ear of those who are not sanctifying their flesh to God’s way. His Holy Spirit preaches repentance to draw man to Him. We should be convicting by pointing out their need to be saved, speak his demand for a holy life where the law is to be fulfilled. This is only done by abiding in Christ Jesus. If someone is going to be mixing up with unbelievers, you better be careful, because Christians are easily tempted to sin. To counter this, one must be set apart and holy where sinful man are drawn to the Spirit of God first, if they are genuine, a relationship can follow.
Love them, bless them, but remember to hate the “world” in terms of sin. If you hate the world an it’s sin as God does, are you really befriending them or being kind to them. There is a difference. To be kind is to love in the Spirit, to befriend is like trying to be someone you are not. If born again, a new creation,the Christian needs to not be yoked to the unbeliever. There is a fine line.

I find many who are saved by grace live their lives as though they are not saved whereby you can not tell if they are saved or not. Most people know that Jesus is their Savior but they do not really know Him as Lord in their life. If you give most of your attention to say your x360 or ps3, or food, or routine, or even your goals, or friends, etc. you can essentially live as though they are your god and not Jesus Christ as Lord. This is why so many grace filled Christians fall away and lose their once love and come to love the world, and the friends they once thought were harmless. If you are approaching these people with Christ First then it helps avoid many pitfalls that many fall into. As scripture says, choose your friends wisely.
Ronnie
Ronnie
Randy said

am February 10 2008 @ 11:00 pm

Ronnie,
Dude…I’m not sure how to respond to your post. You seem to have it all figured out. Allow me to make an observation, however.

You seem to be parroting what you’ve been taught by a teacher or two (pretty verbatim, I might add…I recognize the lingo), rather than what you have discovered on your own. I’ve done that most of my life, btw, so I’m not slinging condemnation…just identifying. I can only suggest you read the Gospels with less bias and without commentaries. Just read them to meet Jesus as he really is.

The fact is, Jesus spent time with demonaics, prostitutes, liars, hypocrites (religious and secular), drunkards, gluttons, and a variety of other people of ill repute. He was, of course, God in the flesh, but he didn’t seem to steer clear of such rabble. In fact, he was himself accused of being a drunkard and a glutton by the hyper-religious people of his time. But my favorite accusation, the one I am most deeply thankful for, was this:

He is a friend of sinners.

I hope you can find that Jesus one day. He invited me into his heart and life a long time ago, and I said, “yes”. I’ve been hanging out with the people he misses most ever since.

Grace and peace to you.
Kate (the second) said

am February 10 2008 @ 11:06 pm

SO true Randy.
Ronnie said

am February 11 2008 @ 1:24 pm

Actually, Randy, it comes from me and it comes from scripture, and not from some preacher.
Here is something brought to my attention just recently,
34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ‘ 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

It does not say Jesus was a friend to sinners but that man said that.
Jesus said those who obey his word, is his brother, mother or sister. Also, Abraham who had faith and followed and believed God was considered a friend of God.

Jesus came to reconcile sinners to be friends with God. He did show interest in helping them but technically, was not there friend because sinners who did not believe were enemies of God.

Something I never knew before, thought you might appreciate that.

Hello Sterling
((”it is not the healthy who need a doctor but the sick.”)) I agree, this is Jesus, he met the woman, something in the Jewish culture was not the norm, alone with a woman, at the well, and he talked with her, told her what she needed to hear, to draw her to Him and the Father.

((He hung out with, but He was not accepting them for what they were”))???

Rather did not accept what they did but accepted them for who they were.
Jesus knew these people but did not go to these people to befriend in the sense of getting along with them in sin, sounds obvious but it is not.

It is like you or I hanging out with a bunch of people to befriend someone who is cursing, gossiping, hating so and so, violent. It should be our purpose, our motivation to share Jesus, as Jesus shared the Father, it consumed Him. Sure he wanted friends but did not want friends who wanted sin, who desired sin. Rather he searched out man in sin who were willing to desire God, and was very forward about that. He never hid that from man and longed for relationship, but in God.

I am not saying we don’t throw away or not associate with others because they are of the world. It does not state he was a friend of sinners. That is obvious. It says it was said of him, very different.

To be friend of sinners, is to be like them. You may dispute that, that is okay, but Jesus came to reconcile man to God, and loved us while still sinners, that does not mean he became buddies with them but loved them while still in sin. There is a difference.

Ronnie
Randy said

am February 11 2008 @ 3:06 pm

Ronnie,

It seems clear that we’re not seeing Jesus (or the scriptures) the same way. I understand your point better now, which you sort of summed up at the end:

I am not saying we don’t throw away or not associate with others because they are of the world. It does not state he was a friend of sinners. That is obvious. It says it was said of him, very different.

To be friend of sinners, is to be like them. You may dispute that, that is okay, but Jesus came to reconcile man to God, and loved us while still sinners, that does not mean he became buddies with them but loved them while still in sin. There is a difference.

I never said Jesus claimed to be a friend of sinners. I said it was an accusation that I particularly liked (since I am one). I also think that was considered a compliment by Jesus, given the whole “came for the sick” thing. And he was accused of this rampant association with “sinners” multiple times…but only by the religous leadership.

And yes, I would definately dispute that to be a friend of sinners means to be like them. I think it means to LIKE them, and LOVE them…just like Jesus (GOD) does. I’d have to admit, though, that there are some “sinner” friends of mine I’m praying I’ll be LIKE one day. In some ways their lives look more like Jesus than mine.
April Terry said

am February 12 2008 @ 3:40 pm

Ronnie are you really saying that we can’t be friends with people who don’t believe just like us?

I had that same experience when I was growing up in Utah as a non-Mormon. I was the pariah. I was the one standing on the outside looking in. I was treated as if I were broken. I wasn’t broken. They wouldn’t date the broken. They wouldn’t hang out with the broken. They wouldn’t allow their children to befriend the broken. The only thing I learned from that approach was the power of bigotry.

What if the only example someone had of a Christ follower was you? What if the only experience they had of Jesus was through you and you rejected them because they were sinners? What if you could show them your faith by loving them as Jesus loved us?

There are those who think that standing on the street corners and proclaiming Jesus is going to win us over, but give me the Christ follower who will listen to my fears, hold my hand when I am sad, and buy me lunch when I’m broke.
Kate (the second) said

am February 12 2008 @ 3:56 pm

“What if the only example someone had of a Christ follower was you? What if the only experience they had of Jesus was through you and you rejected them because they were sinners? What if you could show them your faith by loving them as Jesus loved us? ”

YOU nailed it on the head April Terry!!

As for the mormon treatment, I don’t live there, but the majority of the population where I am is also mostly mormon, and they act the same way. I even lost a best friend of 7 years because she realized I was not going to become a mormon. SO it is a good question.. why not befriend them? Who knows, you may be their only example…

You are so right!
Ronnie said

am February 12 2008 @ 5:41 pm

Appreciate your comments. Clarity is always a helpful.
James 4:4 (Whole Chapter)
You [are like] unfaithful wives [having illicit love affairs with the world and breaking your marriage vow to God]! Do you not know that being the world’s friend is being God’s enemy? So whoever chooses to be a friend of the world takes his stand as an enemy of God.
Friend of the world = enemy of God.
If I had a son or daughter who slept around, it does not mean I abandon my son, in fact, if you look at the prodigal son, he left the father to wander in his desires. The fathers arms were wide open for his son to return to the living he once knew. When you stand for righteous living, will the unbeliever be expecting you to go party where you are out of your senses, or have a discussion on gossip, or talk about how many things you have in common. If we have that many things in common, what makes you different and a light. The gospel should be so radical and contrary to the what, the bad news. If we know for ourselves, personal revelation from Him of Good News, we should then be willing to let that old lifestyle depart from us, and want others to also change.

There was mention of a street gospel preacher who by Holywood standards looks like a lunatic. Yet, imagine a preacher, getting beaten up and yet still returning to a neighborhood to share this gospel. That is a testimony of faith, he is either really loony or there really is something to this guy and what he preaches. Not many people are willing to die for the gospel, let alone tell others to be rejected.

Jude 1:23 (Whole Chapter)
[Strive to] save others, snatching [them] out of [the] fire; on others take pity [but] with fear, loathing even the garment spotted by the flesh and polluted by their sensuality. [Zech 3:2-4 ]
Loathing the flesh = how much more witchcraft, rebellious rites against God
Love the person, hate the behavior.

The inevitable should happen, even if you are successful in being well acquainted with a witch, have dealings with him/her and witness love in their sight, the message of your belief of them going to hell for sin has to be said. If not, what are we really trying to save them from?? It is love to share the gift that has been freely given to you. I have had the experience of sharing the gospel with people before they died, and also, the unfortunate experience of reasoning out that it is not appropriate to tell them they need Jesus because I barely knew them or concerned of being misunderstood and offended. The Lord loved you so much that He took your sins away, so why should you or I hoard the truth and let another person go to hell because we reason that could not have been God. Unexpectant deaths happen. Is that my motivation? Perhaps it should be, seeing Jesus told us by the great commission to make disciples. Jesus did not tell us to go to a town and play Mr. Love. He is love, and when we go in his name, we will want to love and abide in Him. The Holy Ghost will move those who choose to pick up their cross and follow Him. We can not be the Christ follower who lives as a humanitarian. As scripture says, faith without good works is dead. So we do good works, we do bear fruit, love the enemy, feed and cloth him, but Jesus is first. Ironically, we feed Jesus! Jesus took the place of those in pain, and sin, he knows the infirmities, he knows what we need, we who were once not Christian also know what it is to be alone and hopeless. So, in Jesus we can relate and have good news, so why go sharing it as if it is bad news that will turn people away. Every man or woman must admit their failure as a man to not be able to save oneself. Let the weak say I am strong. To be strong in Christ, is to know we are weak and in need of a Savior. We can be strong if we remain in Him.
Ronnie
Ronnie said

am February 12 2008 @ 5:42 pm

sorry never proofread…but the point is there, God bless Ronnie
April said

am February 12 2008 @ 7:46 pm

Ronnie, You take James 4:4 totally out of context. The first words of that verse show it since he is addressing “Ye Adulterers and adulteresses” in the statement. Putting into context James 4:4, you will find that it is about members of the church who are living carnally. No one here on this board is indicating that any of the Christians here should live carnally, but that they should live up to the standards that Christ has called them to live up to, and in doing so, they should be a beacon of light to others. Good living means that we can live in the world, but not be victim to the world. Living in the world doesn’t mean that we cut ourselves off from the world and it certainly doesn’t mean that we cut everyone out of our lives who aren’t living up to our standards. It simply means that we live righteously and by doing that, we reflect Christ in our lives. Christ reflected in our lives is the most beautiful and magnetic thing that we could possibly reflect.

So we do good works, we do bear fruit, love the enemy, feed and cloth him, but Jesus is first.

I don’t recall any of the Christians saying that they weren’t putting Jesus first. In fact, most of them are saying that they are so grateful and so affected by the love of Christ that their humble desire is to share that love. We can’t do that from afar.

Let the weak say I am strong. To be strong in Christ, is to know we are weak and in need of a Savior.

Those who are in Christ are strengthened by His strength and therefore, no longer weak. Jesus is our rock and through Him, we can do all things.

We can not be the Christ follower who lives as a humanitarian

We cannot be a Christ follower and NOT be a humanitarian. Matt 25:35-40
Ronnie said

am February 12 2008 @ 9:57 pm

April, I am addressing carnal and new Christians, perhaps you and the board are looking up, good. But for the many who are not, the many who are not mature Christians, who are swayed this way and that, what is being suggested to hang out with witches is an abomination and dangerous! What does light and darkness have in common?
The fact is, many claim to be Christian and perhaps Jesus is their savior but they do not know live as though He is Lord. As a result many fall away from the faith.

The statement you commented on about being weak is notable. The intent here is to mention that the flesh before salvation was dominant and we lived to Satan. But when born again, we obtain a regenerated spirit and Holy Spirit. So if we then live in the spirit which battles with the flesh, we can overcome, because we abide in Christ. But the flesh is our weakness, in that we sin because of acting out of self. So there remains a weakness in us despite this strength we now have as saved by Christ. For Jesus Christ Himself knew this weakness, and yet overcame it, for he was a man, and yet son of God, who is Spirit.

Regarding Matt 25:35-40, amen. Yes, of course. It is love. Perhaps our definition of friendship is different. I don’t consider myself friends with just anyone? It was said that a witch is not a Satanist, what are they then, if not followers of Satan. They use magic, did Paul befriend the fortune teller, or the magician. He made direct contact alright.
In Acts 13:8-12
8But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. 9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 10″You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.”
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.
Paul demonstrated the power and did not hold back the truth, for prior to this scripture Paul was trying to witness in front of the witch. The witch is an enemy of everything that is right. God’s hand came against the witch, why, because the kingdom of God messager was there! That, as scripture says, is what brought forth the witch in believing. For Jesus commands us first to go and preach the gospel and then signs and wonders will follow! The gospel must be preached, it is not being preached if we try go low key and hope we make a friend so that they will be convinced. If the board, myself, and all Christians are sincere and loving as you say, then why are there not more Christians – it is because we do not preach the gospel as it is, rather we water it down to sooth those witches and unbelievers so that we think they will be more willing to listen. In reality, I believe, the man or woman will not step up is looked upon as a cuddle pussy cat and of no real threat to the kingdom of darkness. Look at the commentaries above and see that the universal love picture is welcomed by all, but Christianity is offensive to the unbeliever who wants to remain as he is, in darkness because of sin.
If no love, I understand, clanging dead works. I will credit you in something I did overlook, the Holy Spirit himself can work through an adopted son or daughter of God where his very presence will eminate out of them so that they are drawn to this peace and holy presence. But it comes back to a man or woman whose soul is sanctified, separated to the Lord Jesus. Most Christians are not, that is why it is dangerous in getting caught up in mixed up in the witch values and morals. When you spend time with people as in friendship implies rather than an acquaintance, they naturally rub off on you, our soul, unless they are so in tune with Jesus. In that case Jesus has one goal to save them, make them whole. No greater good could ever come out of it, but the believer is not hanging out with witches or unbelievers for any length of time. And if this is true, what kind of friendship are you talking of? You can not be friends with the world, but with Christians. This is not banishing them, but when you are living Christ, they will either love your God and want to be saved, keep a distance from you, or hate you and your God!
(This does not mean you can not do Matt 25:25-40 which is loving your enemy, putting hot coals on their consciences)
Ronnie
April Terry said

am February 13 2008 @ 1:23 am

Ronnie,

Consider the fact that many missionaries throughout the ages have worked, lived, and befriended tribes and peoples of many nations, beliefs, and ideologies. If these people had not made a connection with them while living amongst them, Christ would not have been brought to these people at all, and they would never know the loving God that we know. If you hear the stories of missionaries, you will hear that many of them did not preach directly to them or they would have been thrown out of the villages. Instead, they brought the people medicine, clean water, helped them till the soil, and told them stories along the way. Through this kind of loving dialogue and action, hearts were changed.

Through love, many hearts can be affected, but love requires that we give of ourselves. We can’t do that by separating ourselves from anyone who might not believe what we do and we can’t coerce anyone into the faith. Faith must be a choice and in order to compel someone to choose Jesus, they must be able to see the good in Him. We must show that our Jesus is the Greatest Good, and we don’t do that by telling people what they are doing wrong. We do that by showing people what love is.

What I hear from you is a message of fear as if Satan had some power over us, but I would say that there is nothing more powerful than the love of Jesus Christ. Our lives must be so filled with God’s love that people will know that there is nothing more powerful.
Ronnie said

am February 13 2008 @ 2:16 pm

April, it would be nice to chat with you apart from this, where it can be more personal, sometimes you don’t feel like expressing your life to the whole world, so to speak.
I agree with everything you just said except for the last part.
My perspective is not necessarily right, on the Holy Ghost and His way and his guidance at that time is correct for that given moment.
The Lord is all about love, and people can sense that a mile off. The Lord is in that, because He is love. You are right - and if we are not moving in that direction, there are some issues.
Sharing with someone about Christ is telling them how the Lord has impacted a believer and there are times when you don’t feel like sharing or witnessing because it is awkward or inconvenient.
I heard from a missionary who is very much in your face, confrontational personality, who is upfront and preaches the good news to Indians where warlocks and witch doctors are prevalent. Their ministry has seen many of their missionaries over the years martyred to bring the good news to a much opposed people. They have seen miracles and many healings. While still relatively new he was praying that Jesus would also raise the dead as he believed was true. The first opportunity that the Lord impressed on him to do so, he turned it down. He shared how he was in a river diving for the boy who was found in the ‘branches’ that were below and people were on the bank shouting at him telling him to look here or there but it only added to the confusion. His view is now to tell such people to join him in the river if you want to help, otherwise, keep quiet. He found the boy, but he was dead. At that time, God impressed that if he pray for the boy, He would heal him. The commotion of the crowd and feelings of inferiority gave way to walking away. It was fear of the crowd, that he never did as God impressed to him. Giving way to fear or Satan’s tactics. He later shared how it crushed him but thanks to his wife and the Lord was able to continue in the ministry and has reported over 300 dead raisings in their ministry!
I suppose if I were fearful, I would not being writing what I am writing. For I know the power that is in witchcraft and it’s trickery. But I believe greater is He who is in me in then he who is in this world. Not saying you don’t. But when you look around and see those sick around you. I need a love message that works and not the same message that the church that does not represent the church in Acts. I am for Mother Theresa and her love that she shared. The Lord is impressing love in my life and I am sure for everyone else too, so we should not discard this, but surely, you see that many so called professing Christians are walking aimlessly and their message they tell is vague.
How much more will we allow Satan to take what we say as not working. Yes , it works, when you love as you are saying, it works, but the true gospel must be in action. Love, yes, but it comes at a price.
Seems to me after looking at the commentaries that they love to hear that we must love and be involved with witches. I could comment on why but it seems like the win the sinner by love is the motto people are following here. Jesus Christ is the answer, you will agree, however, I just wonder how much of the grace gospel are you buying without recognizing that to remain in the vine is also a condition to your own salvation. If we are advocating here to befriend a witch out of love,…how many situations will they find themselves caught up in. The love message is being advocated as a candy bar, that tastes good and ignores the possibility that it is not what God intended for you to eat. EAsy for you to comment on that because I wrote it but you can not do the same for the scripture prevously wrote such as Paul and the witch.
You infer love but ignore the danger that most Christians are already caught up in ________________.
Ronnie
April Terry said

am February 13 2008 @ 8:42 pm

Ronnie,

If you would like to contact me outside of this post, I have a ministry website at http://www.newhoperoad.org that will provide a link for you to do so.

I encourage your conversation, and I think you would find that most of the people on this message board are solid, thoughtful, and knowledgable Christians who also agree with you in many areas. What I disagree with you on is how to respond to those who don’t believe as we do. That doesn’t mean that I am ignoring any danger, but I am not allowing it rule my life or hold me back from doing what God has tasked me to do. “God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of love and of power of a sound mind.”
Ronnie said

am February 14 2008 @ 9:03 pm

The Lord gave me this scripture.
2 Peter 1:5-9
Passage 2 Peter 1:5-9:
5For this very reason, [a]adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in [b]exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence),

6And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety),

7And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love.

8For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [[c]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

9For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [[d]spiritually] shortsighted, [e]seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.

God bless
Ronnie
Helen said

am February 14 2008 @ 10:38 pm

Ronnie can you elaborate on how you see that passage applying to this conversation?
Ronnie said

am February 15 2008 @ 4:30 pm

Hello Helen,
the scripture, 2 Peter 1:5-9, the niv version may be clearer:

“5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
”
IT has all to do with what is being said in regards to our relationships with people. Those who are Christian are not to take what Jesus did for us, for He loved us while we still were an enemy to God.

If Jesus is having you talk with witches to share His love, that should not be a surprise seeing we were once no different.

That scripture cuts deep for me because that is really where we are to be and we are to be so grateful for being saved. Christians are never to look down on another or think they are better. I agree that we should not fear as the world fears. Sin can be enticing to the flesh, and I have found that if you do not beat around the bush about who you are, a child of God, it often dispels the sin desire. I am not saying you have to be mean in making them feel like dirt when talking about JEsus, but go in this spirit that this scripture talks about, considering yourself lucky and fortunate, sharing your testimony of Jesus and how he has changed your life. It should be joy to share that. That is why Paul said to make the most out of every opportunity, to be salt to the world.

I mentioned previously about the friends business, perhaps that depends on your definition of friends. Christians have to hate sin, and love the sinner, which goes for us as well. It is true that love can draw a sinner to want it because they long for it. I agree with this. I have spoken against the move away from speaking the Word as coming off preaching and ineffective. If Christ lives inside you, then the Word will be effective. Because you will or should be practicing all those things anyway in the above scripture. The seed we sow, which can manifest itself in love from the Word, does not return void. It is the Word that has ultimately brought the believer to revelation, the Holy Ghost that moves as a result of the Word. I just see so many cultured Christians who will make it a habit to say love first, and then tell the Word, if they will hear it. WE are not the one to decide if they will listen. The Word will speak to the spirit, all we have to do is speak the truth. In truth we will love anyway, otherwise what you know as truth is not really truth, as far as revelation for you is concerned, or not practicing it. The biggest problem with Christianity is not that the Word is ineffective, but we are ineffective in using the Word, whether in love, action, faith, or speaking it.

How many Christians excuse themselves in speaking the Word because they think they have a better way then what God has commanded in the great commission. Our culture wants to not be rejected, Jesus paid a price to be hated by man in what he did, to love the world. WHy is is that Jesus was hated for loving, he let the world know they needed to repent, and they resisted this, and hated Him for it and wanted darkness instead.
Perhaps, some witches will be born-again, that would be awesome, and perhaps they may get a glimmer of hope in the love they see to want it here, now. But salvation is the reason to be born again, and that is why John the Baptist preached, Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand. The love comes from the message, and should live in the believer, for Christ dwells there, and if so, then he should love because he nows knows love. Look at all the woes Jesus taught. The message will and should always remain as Jesus began his ministry… Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.

Ronnie
April Terry said

am February 15 2008 @ 5:07 pm

” WHy is is that Jesus was hated for loving, he let the world know they needed to repent, and they resisted this, and hated Him for it and wanted darkness instead.”

Ronnie,

What you said above was interesting because it was the religious people of the day who resisted Jesus the most. Those who needed Jesus the most, the sinners, the poor, etc., were the ones that Jesus hung with the most. It was often the religious whom Jesus got the most angry at. You talk about salvation being the reason for Jesus dying for us, and I agree, but I wonder what you mean by salvation. To you is salvation only a ticket for us to reach heaven in the hereafter or is salvation also a way of living out our lives like Jesus. Living the Kingdom of God here on earth is central to what most are saying here on this board.

That is why Paul said to make the most out of every opportunity, to be salt to the world.

I think we would all agree that any food that is too salty is not tasty. Salt is something that should be used sparingly and with great care. No one here has advocated doing anything that goes against scripture. They have only advocated caring about people even if they are the current outcasts of our generation.

You state that we should stand on God’s Word, but are you really loving your brother if you are looking for the faults in him? The Bible speaks to that and says go out and take the log in your own eye before you start taking the mote out of your brother’s eye.

Besides criticize them, what have you done for those outside of Christianity?

I don’t ask that question lightly. I have stood in the shoes you are currently wearing and while I stood there, I never once brought anyone closer to God. I turned people away from God. What I learned is that loving people is a far greater virtue than telling people what I think is the truth. People want to see the truth in action, not in words. There is a place for words, but they would rather see the action first. Once they have seen your love in action, they will be willing to listen to your words.

My recommendation to you is that you show us your action first. Go out into your community and serve those who need Christ the most, and after you have done that, come back and give us your words.
eldon said

am February 15 2008 @ 5:38 pm

Ronnie,

Very solid responses!
Helen said

am February 15 2008 @ 6:20 pm

Ronnie wrote:

Christians are never to look down on another or think they are better.

I definitely agree with that - I like that you got this from that passage.
Ronnie said

am February 15 2008 @ 8:33 pm

April, (hi, I did send you an email with that link you gave. Just wanted to let you know.)

You commented, “Besides criticize them, what have you done for those outside of Christianity?”

April, there are Christians who are doing what you have said, giving love, with that should be the Word. I am not attacking your walk with Jesus and I think it is absolutely wonderful that you are serving Him. Jesus knows who are His and who is doing what. I agree, Christians need to be doing something, but apart from Christ we can do nothing. Is it possible that an infant knows that they experience Jesus’ love in Mother Theresa when she held them. Yes. I agree with you. I do not mock it, I love the love.

You said”You state that we should stand on God’s Word, but are you really loving your brother if you are looking for the faults in him?”

Why is the much of the present church so content on saying nothing is wrong. Do you see the cripple in the church, they come and they go. Churches are full hurting Christians. You may disagree, perhaps you are not, I don’t know, but I do know that there are many pew warmers who are hurting and are waiting for the truth to set them free but are not getting the Word they need. How rampant is it to hear a preacher preach on prosperity, or self help messages! That is the worst. We are failures, in our own right! That should be a revelation every person needs to hear. I heard the comment put negatively more than once, how druggies and prisoners got nothing better to look forward to then accept Jesus -
First of all, that is there witness, what they said is accurate. Why accept Jesus? When you truly know that everything life throws at you in this world does not fix you and your longing to be whole, only then will you finally admit that I am a failure, that everything I have done, is worthless in comparison to what I am looking for. Our failure is to strive to make it on our own, and it is very difficult to admit that against the wind it is hopeless. Wave after wave, we are beaten and feel more burden and hurt then before. We can not do it. Jesus is the answer! I believed the message of salvation for years and believe I was saved for years. But I could not understand how could I still be miserable inside and yet look at the faces around me seem to have it together?? The professing Christian who sits in church and looks down on another sinner is missing the mark. The man in himself is void, living but void, a failure in need of a savior and Lord. I knew Jesus as my SAvior but never knew Him as Lord. I felt like what many Christians felt like, having to pretend everything was all good, when in fact, I was desperately looking for help, and waves of an emotional roller coaster rider would sweep me and throw me around. I thank Jesus, in my worst moments of hopelessness, he revealed to me that that despite being a Christian, I was living as though I still had to make it, get it together, be a success in my work.

I could share with others that one needed to be saved to go to heaven and believed the truth of the bible, but could not express to live as a Christian now!
Now I can! You see when you are raised thinking you must get yourself together, in God’s grace I was saved, I had no one else to go to. Everything hit a dead end, my attempts to get the dream life, the paradise, the life I want now, I could not get. In my thinking and pride, I thought I could do it. You can not.
When all these things of your success is based on what you can do, you will feel inferior, you were never meant to do it! The garden of Eden, tells the story of how man desired something other than God, and chose it.
When you choose your career, your success, sex, drugs, a ‘happy’ family or ‘perfect’ spouse, you are making that the most important thing to you, your god, your lord!
When I Jesus revealed this truth to me, I asked for forgiveness, if anyone said I was doing this, I would have called out to lunch. Jesus is the savior of the world for those who believe. HE is also to be Lord, but many Christians do not realize that they live as thought he were not.

John 3:16 says 16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

When you accept Jesus as your savior, you need to know that your identity is no longer your failure or your success. It is what He did, not what you can do. That does not mean you do nothing, you have purpose and that is found in giving your life over to Him. You need to crucify, give up your self, and give it to Him. The Word says He will give you the desires of your heart if you seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.
You are not meant to kill you desire. Jesus desires you to desire Him. You will find your answers in Him and nothing else. God bless.

The answer is near you, for the Kingdom of God is near you. Take it.

Ronnie
Ronnie said

am February 15 2008 @ 11:43 pm

I glanced over what I written, and want to be the first to tell you I am not Jesus. lol! (I really need to proofread.) What we can bring to a witch or unbeliever is our identity in Jesus Christ.

It is good good news to tell someone that you know what, all the pain and hurt I am now so glad of it because Jesus has taken it. I sound that sounds so out there but I am so grateful for what he has done. I gave it to Him, I let down the wall that was supposed to protect me from getting hurt. I was experiencing a lot of pain, and got upset that the Lord was letting me got through it. I said something along the lines to Him how can you let me go through all of this, don’t you care that I am hurting? In my spirit, I sensed Him say, that he has always cared about me, but I have held on to my pain and would not let Him in. I was afraid to be hurt, and the wall I thought protected me was keeping Him out (by my will). I had to let the wall come down, ask Jesus to forgive me for holding on to my hurts and trying to protect myself, something I was never intended to do. If you give it to Jesus, there is freedom. When someone wants to hurt you or says something or does something that is cruel, you can take it, for the first time in your life, you can take it because you are giving it right there and then to Him! You were never intended to deal with the pain by yourself. No doctor can take it away but Jesus can, he really can. This is not self help, it is giving it to Jesus and He will help you. The weight on your shoulders will lift because you are not alone, it is good to share with friends, etc., but in the end only Jesus is the answer you need.

This is good news. SAlvation now that is alive.
I am not saying Christianity is all about floating on clouds because that is nonsense, but what I can promise you is that in the midst of life, you have a friend, who is present and you can do it.

The hope that exists within you to have the perfect life, you were designed to have. The hope of it is real and not to be denied. Your life really only begins when you accept Jesus as SAvior and Lord. People will hate you but you will know the truth. What is the truth. It can be found in the Word, Jesus is alive, your sins have been nailed to a tree, you are not to be feeling guilty any longer, you are to live today for righteousness, you are to desire the Holy of Holies, you are to be a child of God, and even greater, a son or daughter of God, that grows up to know the FAther, son of God - Jesus Christ, and Holy Ghost.
Your salvation is available and making Jesus Lord, Master in your life will radically do in you what this world could not do for you. He is the way , the truth, and the life. All you have to do is repent of your sins, tell Him you believe that He loved you so much that he allowed his only son to come to earth, live life blamelessly as a man, and be killed as a perfect sacrifice, so that you may have a right relationship with Father God. Take a bible, read in one of the gospels such as John or Luke to bring further revelation to your spirit about who He says you are.
If you want to talk it over with another Christian about your profession of Jesus Christ being your savior or someother issue to possibly help clarify, I would be happy to respond. Just try not to spam me. lol
ronnieobrien(at)hotmail(dot)com
Ronnie
God bless

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Can Christians be Friends with Witches?

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