My Christian Credentials
Our ministry is losing two of our singers and we have been trying to get the word out to find replacements so I stopped by a local Christian bookstore at lunch on Friday to put my flyer up on their bulletin board.
I was on my lunch hour and in a bit of a hurry, but I stopped at the front desk only to find the lady there was making an order with one of her vendors. It appeared that she would be a while, but I waited for a few moments longer. Then, looking into the back area, I spied a bulletin board boldly labeled “Special Events.” I left the counter and proceeded to the back, where I started to place my flyer on the bulletin board. There were various flyers on the board, but nothing that said it had to be placed by the store personnel.
Just as I was leaving, having posted my flyer, the woman met me at the bulletin board and haughtily asked me if I needed help. “Oh, yes! Can I put my flyer on your bulletin board?” Even though I knew it was a silly question, the woman was clearly annoyed with me for having the audacity to consider posting it, and she let me know that she must first approve it before I could post it there. So, she picked up my humble little flyer and proceeded to read it.
“SENIOR MINISTRY NEEDS SINGERS. What church is this?” It was clear that she wasn’t going to leave any subversive poster materials on her precious bulletin board, so I proceeded to explain that we are a non-denominational Christian ministry, knowing that this could be a problem since I had already annoyed her.
She read a little more of it. “Well, I guess this would be okay,” she responded. She still seemed annoyed. I thanked her and left to get back to work.
Can I just say how annoying Christians can be? Is there a card that you can carry that will get you past the Christian red tape? If Jesus had come to her counter, would this lady be just as annoyed and ask Him for His Christian credentials?
I can laugh about it now, but I can’t tell you the number of times that I have run into this exact type of attitude. I guess I will have to go out and get myself a calling card of some kind. Something that will say to that person policing the bulletin board next time that I am a Christ follower extraordinaire, a real, dyed in the wool, card-carrying, red-letter Christian who got her credentials directly from the Prince of Peace Himself. Unfortunately, I think this lady would still get annoyed.
November 12th, 2007 · 23 Comments
Categories: OA Stories
Helen said
am November 12 2007 @ 9:10 am
April, I hope you find the singers you need for your group.
I totally understand why this was annoying. I even get annoyed when strangers online argue about whether I was a ‘real’ Christian. Maybe I shouldn’t care but it’s annoying that people who know very little about me feel so certain they can know whether I was a ‘real’ Christian or not.
Anyway – I wonder if there’s a way to turn this around. Like, maybe you could take a deep breath and go back and say to that lady
“[First, if it's still relevant, you could connect with her this way: I understand you need to be careful about what goes on your notice board]
Would you like to come with us when we sing sometime? It’s amazing what God does as we sing to these people and do things like intentionally touch them gently to show them God’s love!”
If you can open up a conversation which touches her heart then maybe she will end up being on your side rather than being the lady who has to protect her bookstore against ‘people like you’ that she knows very little about.
I often have had to remind myself “this person means well in that they think they are doing what Jesus wants them to do – even though I don’t see it that way and I feel rather hurt by it”.
This is where I got off the ‘Christian’ train – i.e. when I saw that the train I was on had lots of Christian passengers doing what they believed was right in ways that significantly interfered with being kind.
I realize I could have gone a different direction – I could have said “ok, this is evidently the ‘kindness doesn’t matter, only truth’ Christian train – where is the ‘kindness matters very much’ (1 Cor 13, maybe I would have said at the time) Christian train?” But there were many other things going on with me that sent me the direction I went.
Chris Johnson said
am November 12 2007 @ 11:46 am
I don’t know who is “at fault” here. I mean, even though we have a bulletin board, putting something up without first asking is presumptuous and a touch thoughtless. If it had “welcomed” new postings, then that would be fine, but to presume that you can use it…in someone else’s space…without checking in…
…Well, that would have been just the type of action you’d expect from a Christian in 21st century America.
Helen said
am November 12 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Chris, this is how I see it…
Jesus came to set up his Kingdom. Not to support the efforts of people trying to set up or cling onto their own.
Even so, there are a lot of Christians who seem confused about this: they have their own little Kingdoms in which “I make the rules and you obey my rules”. These Christians are making the mistake of standing in the place of God rather than following him, imo.
It sounds to me like the store lady may be a little confused on this point – her bulletin board is her little Kingdom, so it seems and woe betide anyone who transgresses her (unstated!) posting rules.
But…maybe I’m making too much of this…and we all have issues – I certainly have lots of my own. I was hoping that if April went back and tried to establish a friendly connection with the store lady, maybe it would work and they could be friends. Who knows…if she sings maybe she might join the group!
Randy said
am November 12 2007 @ 12:50 pm
I wonder if the situation would have played out differently at say, Borders or some other regular bookseller? Would our expectations, or theirs, be different? Just wondering.
I can tell you from personal experience and from the testimony of dozens of personal friends who own businesses that the Christian population in general makes for a really difficult customer (very picky, wants stuff for free, demanding…the list goes on). I therefore can’t imagine a more eye-opening, cynicism-building job than working in a Christian bookstore.
Well…maybe working in a church would beat it.
(Sorry. Sometimes I can’t help myself.)
April, I think it would be cool to post your flyer in some less Christian locations, like the local college or music store. I think it would be fantastic to open up this opportunity to minister to the seniors with music to anyone who has a heart for it (and who can sing, of course!). Why would this person need to be a card-carrying, red-letter Christian? You’d probably have more fun doing this with someone who perhaps only shares your love of music and the elderly!
Pam Hogeweide said
am November 12 2007 @ 2:21 pm
my neighborhood grocery store wouldn’t even blink an eye if you wanted to put up a flyer as innocuous as looking for choir singers. but i know that i could not waltz into any xtian bookstore in my entire city and do the same. it would need to pass the test of being safe and christiany.
another shred of evidence of evangelical culture tendency to be exclusive. that’s my take on it, anyway. and april, it sounds like you handled the tension graciously. and as helen said, good luck on finding your new singers.
(and, chris, i don’t know where you post bulletins but if you are ever in my neighborhood, post away. you don’t even have to ask first – at the local grocery store i mean – and no one will consider you thoughtless for just doing it)
Randy said
am November 12 2007 @ 3:17 pm
Pam,
Thanks for stopping in, my friend!
I think their might be a difference (did I just hear you say, “DUH”?) between the grocery store bulletin board and the church or Christian bookstore bulletin board. Our Christian versions of these “community” posting areas are usually closely monitored for reasons of apparent endorsement. You find a flyer for a dating service on the church board and you naturally assume the church endorses it (even if it says right on the board that they don’t endorse ANYTHING on the board). Then you use the service and it results in a date rape and then you sue the church and win. Or at least you blame the church for endorsing such an evil thing.
Yes…this has actually happened to me. Or at least a version of it.
I created a “Resource Sharing Board” at our church for FREE STUFF ONLY (you have something you don’t need, give it away to someone who needs it; you need something you don’t have, post a request). It seemed like a very Biblical way to share resources, and we welcomed the neighborhood to participate. It ended up being shut down because no matter what we said or wrote to clarify the point of the board, people were angry with US because the car they were given by someone who saw their need didn’t work very well or the haircut was crappy (also free), or whatever. It was the church’s fault, and it took most of a part-time assistant’s week to handle the calls. We dropped it after one year.
So I get the need to qualify postings in a church or perhaps Christian Bookstore, and not so much in a grocery store. The expectations are way different. Nobody expects that the grocery store is endorsing or guaranteeing anything on the board, and to do so would seem silly at the least. Very different expectations for the Christian bookstore and the church.
Is that good or bad…or irrelevant altogether?
Frank said
am November 12 2007 @ 4:17 pm
Service that “speaks Christ,” or rather a lack thereof, is one of two reasons that I do not frequent Christian bookstores. The other is the shallowness of the books they offer. Sad to say, but I can usually find Christian books that are much deeper and more spiritually edifying at Borders (among others) than I can at my local Christian bookstore. As a side note, one of the local Christian bookstores nearby closed because, according to them, “the chains drove us out of business.” Perhaps, a better offering of books that were deeper in spirituality would have kept them in business.
Pam Hogeweide said
am November 12 2007 @ 4:25 pm
you make a great point, randy. maybe it’s our evangelical idealism that demands high moral standards from everything to music and movies to bulletin board flyers and even free haircuts.
i just hope that i can help further the trail of grace in my everyday relationships. maybe i’ll put a bulletin board on one of the trees in my front yard.
Randy said
am November 12 2007 @ 5:18 pm
Frank,
I’m with you on this. Most of the Christian “bookstores” are pathetically short on books, in general. A lot of “Jesus junk”, and the latest hot-selling author’s pap, but try to find a decent set of commentaries there, or a classic work from a Christian mystic…fageddabowdit. You can get a snazzy cover for that $100 bible, though.
I shop Amazon for whatever I need, book-wise.
April Terry said
am November 12 2007 @ 5:23 pm
Wow, I got back into this conversation late, but I will chime in…
First of all, in response to Chris’ posting, I didn’t imagine that it was considered “presumptous” to post something on a bulletin board that was put there for that purpose. In fact, the second Christian bookstore I went to (I made a point of asking) just told me where the bulletin board was.
Randy’s comment about us posting on other bulletin boards is well taken, and we actually did that. In fact, I just hired someone new and she came from my craigslist ad.
Anyway, I tend to agree more with Helen’s analysis over all because I am not in the “in” crowd or in the “out” crowd. I just don’t fit those labels at all.
Randy said
am November 12 2007 @ 5:42 pm
Lovin’ this, Pam:
We could stand to lose a few lawyers, too, (IMHO).
Chris Johnson said
am November 13 2007 @ 1:52 pm
April-
Presume nothing–the bulletin board was put up for the store’s convenience, and without an explicit “please post whatever you feel like it,” filter, then…
…you may have presumed that it had a purpose.
Christians are the worst. I am one. What a bunch of self aggrandizing, self important idiots.
April Terry said
am November 13 2007 @ 3:31 pm
Chris –
I would argue that humans are self-aggrandizing, self-important idiots. That seems to be a human condition and not uniquely Christian. I’m really sorry if you find me self-aggrandizing and self-important because my post was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.
I would say, though, that if being Christian doesn’t make us less self-aggrandizing and self-important then perhaps we should consider that we aren’t doing it right—at least not the way that Christ would have us be.
By posting this, I meant no ill-will to the lady of the bulletin board, but not being a churched Christian myself, I see things a little differently and I believe that it is worth discussion here since what we are talking about is relating to others.
There are other people who will read this board who will understand my reaction to this woman. I chose not to react to the woman in any way because I did not want to return to her what had been dealt to me, but it opens a nice discussion about what we are here for and what it means to be a 24-7 Christian.
It seems that you feel that I got what I deserved, and that may be true. If Christians keep giving each other what they deserve, will we be left with any Grace?
Randy said
am November 13 2007 @ 7:37 pm
April,
Amen to that, sister! Hard to say it outloud without becoming a poster child for the point, though, eh? (been there, done that, got the t-shirt). I used to say that church would be a lot of fun if it wasn’t for all the idiots that keep showing up.
Yeah…I know, I ARE one.
Chris, I wasn’t sure what you were saying, but it did sound a bit harsh (which it seems April also felt). I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt, which is not something I am naturally good at. Can you help me understand a bit more of what your intent was here? I might have missed your point entirely.
Steve said
am November 13 2007 @ 8:30 pm
how is this an oa story?
Randy said
am November 13 2007 @ 8:49 pm
Steve,
It’s not. This site is about learning how to celebrate the ordinary attempt. We do that by telling stories, and by sometimes sharing a thought about evangelism or what it means to be ordinary. It’s partly about education, partly about celebration, and partly about getting people to think about how we connect with others. It seems like April did a pretty good job at that this week!
Chris Johnson said
am November 13 2007 @ 11:48 pm
My point was this: somehow the bulletin board–which didn’t say “Hey, anyone can post this” was something April was entitled to.
I wasn’t a “Churched” christian–and April’s right to hold Christians to a higher standard. What april did was the equivalent of comment spam–if I wanted to drive traffic from OA sites to mine…and then act mad about it when someone said something.
I’m a mortgage lender–if I had posted “chrisdoes loans .com ” all over this place, it would be rude; yet Christian Business network people make lunatic presumptions all the time.
I don’t think I was harsh–someone who OWNS a bookstore should get asked. It’s BASELINE manners, unless the bulletin board EXPLICITLY says, “post whatever the hell you want here.”
It’s equally astonishing that you feel like someone was haughty, or overstepping their bounds to choose to let a post remain or not remain.
In public, the presumption over other’s resources is the biggest turn off about Christians.
—> Christians are not welcomed at resaraunts like the Olive Garden because they monopolize server’s tables, and leave substandard tips…while moralizing that those people shouldn’t be working on a Sunday.
—> In real estate, it’s said that the surest way to know you’re getting screwed is by the number of times someone brings out Christ. (I agree, and it breaks my heart).
—> And then there are the pious; those that believe that works/not grace is the basis of their salvation; and cluck at someone who has a difference of opinion from theirs.
The general Christian (to whom much has been given) has such horrible comportment in the world, and is so militantly thoughtless that it’s no wonder there are stiff barriers to evangalism.
I was shocked to see the tenor and tone of this post, and yeah, we’re all sinners, but to be on a blog about CONNECTING with people, and to have commandeered their reaources presumably without permission…and then get mad at THEM when they ultimately let your rudeness go…just made my head blow up.
Anyway, this’ll be it–I’ll leave you folks to cluck over me and my harsh ways. If y’all decide I’m without merit
Helen said
am November 14 2007 @ 9:33 am
Chris wrote:
Chris, like someone else here said, I’ve seen bulletin boards where people can post whatever they want – it think it varies from store to store. I agree that it’s best not to assume things. But it feels to me like the store owner made a ton of assumptions about April. If April shouldn’t have assumed, the store owner shouldn’t have either, right? Can we say they both made mistakes?
Absolutely.
We encourage people to be honest here (as long as they can do it and be respectful of each other) and it seems to me April was being honest rather than saying “My behavior was perfect!”
Based on experience, my sense is that April is very open to us saying “Maybe you could have behaved differently”.
I think maybe you erred in assuming April and others here were affirming presumptuousness and thoughtlessness. That never was my intention and I doubt it was April’s either. What gets really tiring is always having to be the one who shows grace – because if we slip up once there’s no grace for us…
And maybe you’re feeling that no grace has been shown to you here – if so I’m sorry, because we do intend to welcome everyone and not have a knee-jerk negative reaction against people who happen not to agree with us. Thanks for sharing – you’ve made this comments discussion much more interesting than it would have been had you not contributed – please stick around unless you are so annoyed with us you can’t stand to be here anymore
Randy said
am November 14 2007 @ 11:36 am
Steve,
Turns out I did miss most of your original point. Thanks for the clarification. I just needed more words to put it together in my head (takes me longer than some).
I have similar frustration about the public Christian, which I believe I alluded to above somewhere (while missing your point, I might add). I just didn’t get the impression that April was in that category, but I can see now why you might have. Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself here.
It really does matter if we fail to listen to one another. I’m working on that.
April Terry said
am November 14 2007 @ 12:32 pm
Clearly my sarcastic sense of humor doesn’t come off well in print…(or maybe I’m not funny–ouch!)
Chris, no need to feel like you can’t be open about your feelings here. I hope you will check out this site and read more of what I have personally written because I think that you will find that this post isn’t a normal one for me. I think that Helen and Randy, having read many comments from me in the past (I post once a week here), understand that I was just trying to be transparent with my feelings–good or bad.
Being a Christian who is outside the church is difficult sometimes. We have a ministry that we have committed to and it is alive and flourishing, but we are often questioned by churches and Christians because we are not supported by any specific denomination. That’s why I am sensitive to it. In fact, once we were singing for a specific church and they actually announced that we were with their denomination so that they could “legitimize” us to their congregation after several people questioned what denomination we were with.
We don’t collect money or charge for our ministry and don’t expect freebies from anyone, either. This is honestly the first time that I have had to advertise since we started our ministry five years ago. Our ministry has always been about giving and not taking, and that’s why I am sorry that the tone of my post came off in such a way. It doesn’t represent what our ministry is really about, and it doesn’t really represent me as a person, either. It simply mirrors some of my frustrations with deailing with Christians as an outsider to the corporate church.
I think if you hang out with us for a while, you will find us to be open to receiving whatever you have to say.
Jim said
am November 14 2007 @ 1:48 pm
I love when people have controversial conversations without any involvement on my part.
Since you cant see “trust” via email this ends up looking like a standoff of sorts. I “trust” April because when no one is looking she serves. She connects with people consistently that I find annoying.I admire her faith and her faithfulness.
She is gracious to those of us who are often “out there” in our theological views. She has extended “trust” when she didnt even know if we would notice>
Well, I have noticed and so when she tells me the story about her eperience with the Christian Bookstore – I listen and believe her.
I can do that since I know her track record and as the reigning OA er in out little network she has earned the right to a day off for noticing something other than how someone else is doing.
Thanks April for all you do
And Chris – you are one smart, insightful and genuine person
Thanks for interacting with us here and I hope this won’t be your last time
Chris Johnson said
am November 19 2007 @ 10:49 pm
I didn’t feel chased away–somehow the comments RSS only just fed reader a moment ago. No big deal.
April-
Part of me was trolling, part of me was serious. Both the High church types, and the unchurched types (me) have some haughtiness/issues vs. one another. It IS rude, in the absence of a “please feel free to post,” to post…and act entitled to it.
Stop looking down on folks cultured in a church. Human relationships are fragile.
Helen said
am November 20 2007 @ 11:57 am
Hi Chris, you’re welcome to continue contributing but I still think you’re failing to understand that April has shown time and time again she’s a very kind caring person; this one week she shared some frustrations – which to us is forgivably human of her.
If she looked down on people we’d have noticed by now. So…no need to tell her to stop as if that’s an ingrained character problem.
And besides, we’re hoping to promote respectful dialog around here so please share your constructive criticism as respectfully as possible.