Who Then Can Be Saved?
I’ve been thinking about Christian conversion and how we often view our own stories in a linear fashion and want to mark some point in time on a straight line from birth to death that marks our transition from not-a-Christian to Christian.
I have had discussions over the years with Christians on topics like, “Once saved, always saved,” and, “Can someone lose their salvation?” Interestingly, there are verses in the Bible that seem to leave these questions open.
All of this talk presumes a view of conversion as an “in-out” proposition. Let’s take a look at this in-out question…
Imagine Jesus invites Jill in. Jill accepts the invitation and lives in Christ for a number of years. Then one day, she decides she wants out. Can she get out? According to “once saved always saved” Jill can never get out. She may choose to act like she’s out, but she’s really still in and living in denial.
Then we have Andy, he wants in, but he’s not really sure he can live up to the standards of being in. He tries for a while, but royally screws up one day and is kicked out. Most of the time Andy still acts like he’s in, but he’s afraid if he tries to get back in, he’ll just screw up. According to “you can lose your salvation” thinking, Andy is out and will only be let back in if he behaves properly.
In either case, the in-out questions is answered in regards to a point in time. Is this the question we should be asking and trying to answer from our point of view?
In the Gospels Jesus uses many different metaphors or expressions when talking to people about faith:
you must be born again to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3),
he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him (John 6:56),
I am the light of the world, he who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life (John 8:12),
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish: and no one shall snatch them out of My hand (John 10:27-28),
I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes n Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die (John 11:25-26),
I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me (John 14:6),
…and many more.
In just these few passages of Scripture we find complexity in what it means to be a Christian. Receiving, partaking, responding, relating, believing, choosing – all are part of the process of being converted, of choosing to follow Christ.
We are fooling ourselves if we think we can boil this mystery of being born again down into a brief moment in time when a person prays a prayer or walks an aisle to the altar. Even in physical human birth, the seed takes nine months to grow to the point of being birthed into this world.
Some have found it helpful to talk about different models of conversion, using:
set theory where in-out thinking is called bounded-set thinking, focused on the boundaries and whether a person is in or out; or
centered-set thinking focuses more on the process and the direction of the individual – are they moving toward the center – which in this case would be Jesus – or are they moving away.
Both of these models of conversion are still very linear and don’t leave much room for the complexities of life as we experience it.
Perhaps the study of complex systems and chaos theory could provide us with a workable model for conversion and help to change our thinking about evangelism and discipleship.
The term chaos when used in relation to chaos theory is at odds with the common usage of the term. We commonly think of chaos as complete disorder, but chaotic systems have the appearance of disorder but are actually governed by a set of deterministic laws. In applying this to a person’s experience of conversion, chaos theory would allow for seemingly random behavior within God’s system of grace, or as I like to say, unpredictability governed by grace.
We would do well to accept the variability and unpredictability of the activity of God in the world and leave the questions of who is in and who is out, who is moving towards or who is moving away, to God who governs it all with grace.
When we place conversion as the goal of our evangelism we run the risk of becoming judge and jury of a shallow faith that doesn’t resemble the kind of Kingdom living Jesus came to usher in.
Elizabeth’s original post can be found HERE.
April 21st, 2009 · 11 Comments
Categories: DE Thoughts
Greg Ryan said
am April 22 2009 @ 11:58 am
I loved your article, I am in the Christian clothing business combining prayer and evangelism.
This is so refreshing to read that other believers are concerned about evangelism but not making people drop to a knee and become what they define as “Saved”. What’s wrong with planting and watering? (besides not being measurable)
I have been writing on personal evangelism, (not as well as you) in a couple of posts that handshake with your ministry. Never knew you were out there. (I do now)
Thank you for what you are doing in His Kingdom.
Elizabeth Chapin said
am April 22 2009 @ 6:36 pm
Thanks for the comment Greg. Planting and watering are essential. I wonder why we feel so compelled to measure these things? Is it our culture of competition and search for significance that lead us to need to measure conversions?
Greg Ryan said
am April 23 2009 @ 11:40 am
Hi Elizabeth,
I think it is a combination of many factors but I believe it is a damaging practice. This single mindedness keeps people from doing little things every day that point people to Jesus.
Evangelism Book Idea « Emerging Chaos said
am April 23 2009 @ 1:15 pm
[...] blog (I am a guest author there now, blogging about once a month) and the article got picked up by Doable Evangelism as well. If you are not a regular reader of those blogs, I encourage you to check them [...]
Donna Mathwig said
am April 24 2009 @ 12:24 pm
Hey Elizabeth…great thoughts! I too have thought much about customary ways of thinking about salvation, and have been greatly troubled by the in/out verbage so often assigned to determining one’s status before God. “Saved” is not in my vernacular; truth is, I detest it’s use, primarily because it infers that someone is either in or out. Judging someone’s standing before God is not my – nor anyone else’s – job. I have found that many people hold faith in God, believe in Jesus, yet do not ‘wear the badge’ that make them easily identifiable, i.e., attend a church regularly, yet are Christlike in their everyday life. What a relief it was to finally recognize that God doesn’t need me to police his world – he needs me to acknowledge, welcome and serve others with lovingkindness as I am able. The journey is about noticing and engaging the other, and in doing so we communicate the love God holds for people with integrity, honor and respect.
Last weekend I sat with a Mom who had just placed a newborn for adoption, I brought her flowers to honor her courage, and talked with her a bit. I gave her my cell number, and I told her to call me if she wanted to talk more, or even if she just wanted a pizza. This mama holds faith in her heart – she acknowledged Jesus years ago – she’s just made some unhealthy choices in life and she’s dealing with the consequences. My job is to hold her pain alongside her, and do what I can to soften the blow by being present as a friend. Had I said she needed to “turn her life over to Jesus again” I would likely never hear from her; instead, I offered her conversation and pizza. And you know what? It was the pizza that spoke volumes to her! The pizza represented the utmost of care to her. I saw no need to determine her standing before God – just to meet her need.
Loving people without the fear of needing to interject awkward, condescending language is such a simpler and more helpful path toward helping them to connect with God’s amazing love.
Sorry this has been so long – I ponder these kinds of thoughts daily, if not hourly!
Teresa Sharp said
am April 25 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Good discussion.
I have tried to keep the question as personal as I can (in order to avoid the ever present temptation to judge other’s hearts). Coming from a background of militant ‘you can lose your salvation’ with years of bashing the ‘once saved always saved’ position it is a very personal question.
My struggle to follow Jesus (two steps forward, three steps back) brought me to a place of asking if I am really ‘saved’.
The verses that came to mind are in I John 5:11-13 “…God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW (emphasis mine) that you have eternal life”.
If my peace and security are based on how well I ‘follow’ Jesus and bring His Kingdom to earth I will sink into despair (again). The moments of being released to love like He loves are few and far between. But I rest in the comfort of knowing I’m His and He is mine, a betrothal that He is faithful to keep.
In my own life I am not really sure the point of ‘crossing over from death to life’ (John 5:24) but I do believe there was a point that God knows and maybe in His presence that will be clear or unnecessary.
That is just one thought from many good thoughts that were stirred by your blog entry and responses. Thanks…tj
Chandra Moore said
am April 26 2009 @ 6:28 am
How weird that this has been on my mind lately as well
First of all, congrats on the article picked up here!
Secondly, while I do think as individuals we can point to a certain time in our life when we in our hearts decided to trust Christ with our lives, I think it’s more personal than anything. I know August 16th 2002 was the day for me where I whole heartedly gave my life to Christ and never looked back. I guess for me I partially know that because I thought I had been “saved” 2 other times in my life, yet despite that I spent my entire adolescence alone and suicidal. While I’ve had darker days since that time and since the day I say I was “saved” I haven’t ever lost that hope I felt on that day. And that has kept me knowing I have something to live for, even through events I never would have survived as a teen. I would say it’s because I KNOW I’m saved.
Now that’s not to say I haven’t almost walked away from the church a hundred times since then. That to me is the real struggle in this day an age. But I’ve finally (and been lucky enough to be one of the few in my generation) been able to separate the “church” from my relationship with “God”. Since the two are not synonymous with each other (contrary to popular belief) I have had no problem walking away from the “church” for a period of time and yet knowing my relationship with God is growing.
I however absolutely agree that when it comes to evangelism the Christian attitude of needing a set time and place when someone else becomes a “Christian” is the wrong attitude to have when reaching others. Along with a lot of things wrong with evangelism IMO. As Christians we are called to be part of our communities and part of the lives of those we get the chance of meeting. To me if we have a “goal” in mind with everyone we meet to “save” them, we will always miss the mark and be doomed to continue to lose our effectiveness not only as “Christians” but as friends and human beings. Our only thought when it comes to those not “saved” should be to befriend them, not because we need to save them, but because if we only befriend our “kind” we will find ourselves very lonely at the rate people are leaving the church…
Elizabeth Chapin said
am April 26 2009 @ 12:34 pm
Donna,
Great thoughts, thank for pondering them here with us! I love how you say, “What a relief it was to finally recognize that God doesn’t need me to police his world – he needs me to acknowledge, welcome and serve others with lovingkindness as I am able. The journey is about noticing and engaging the other, and in doing so we communicate the love God holds for people with integrity, honor and respect.”
Which leads into what I’m thinking about Teresa’s comment. I wonder if perhaps some of our insecurity stems not so much from how well we are behaving or following Jesus, but from the idea of “in or out” as the only options. This is where there is a big difference between bounded set and centered set and the whole idea of chaos theory and unpredictability governed by grace. Sometimes, I think we need to stop being so hard on ourselves and give ourselves a little more grace, believing in the boundless mercy and endless grace of God.
Teresa,
I appreciate your candor here and the sincerity of your faith. I have used that verse you mentioned many times to encourage others who are struggling with their faith. But, even in John’s writing there is a strong emphasis on acting like God’s children over mere “beliefism”, but when we take that verse and ask it to stand alone, we can be tempted to fall into a trap of minimal beliefism (which I think much of the church in America suffers from) where we do not love our brother whom we do see even though we say we love God whom we cannot see. I don’t think our peace and security should rest upon our ability to behave properly, but neither do I think our peace and security should rest on some transaction of praying a prayer, being confirmed or walking an aisle. Our peace and security must rest firmly upon the person and work of Jesus – however we see that manifested in our own lives.
Elizabeth Chapin said
am April 26 2009 @ 12:54 pm
Chandra,
It’s so great to read your comments here! I especially agree with your comment about not having an agenda when we become friends with others. God’s agenda is love, pure love. When we love others out of the fullness of God’s love, there may be a certain desire for them to know this God who loves them immeasurably more than any human ever could, but our goal becomes to love them as we have been loved regardless of how they respond to that love. When we have saving them as a goal, it does color and stain everything and then we are tempted to give up if they don’t get saved after some arbitrary point in time or after some amount of expenditure of our resources.
I understand your sentiments about not only befriending our kind but even in that, our friendships with others (whether inside or outside church) need to be genuine. As a friend of mine says, “You can’t fake liking someone for very long.” When we genuinely care for others we are acting more like Christ, who so loved the world that he died for us.
Cindy said
am April 27 2009 @ 8:51 pm
How nice to run across you so serendipitously, Elizabeth! Great article, too, though I’m not sure I understand all of it. Reading the comments, the thought came to me . . . what if the thing that really matters is whether we want Jesus, truly? If we want Him, we’ll be in Him and He in us and if we’re self-sufficient and self-righteous and Pharisaical, well, maybe we get what we really want then, too.
The “magic prayer” as I call it rather tongue-in-cheekishly, always did seem too pat. I heard a well-known evangelist say, “I’ve seen Jesus save drunk after drunk while they were drunk,” but he didn’t stick around to mentor and disciple all these inebriated converts, and I always wondered how he knew they were saved. Not that God couldn’t turn your heart toward Himself while you were drunk or stoned or whatever, but how would this guy know? He never stuck around long enough to even make an educated guess.
The whole idea that if you don’t have a date written down in your bible when “it” happened, then you’re not genuinely in the family is a problem for me. I “prayed the prayer” many times as a child, a teenager, an adult, but I have no idea when I finally stopped focusing on myself and started longing for Jesus. It was a gradual thing–like the growth of a tiny seedling. When does it become a sapling? A tree? There is no set point, and for most of the natural world, this continuum paradigm is repeated over and over.
God is not as easy to quantify as we’ve made Him out to be. Systematic theology? I imagine Him shaking his head in amusement or perhaps bemusement at our simple-minded attempts to turn Him into a logic puzzle or a mathematical equation. Get wisdom and with all your getting, get understanding. These come only from Jesus, Who is the wisdom and knowledge of God. Maybe it’s all a matter of clinging desperately to the fringes of His garment and refusing to let go.
Elizabeth Chapin said
am April 28 2009 @ 12:38 pm
Cindy, thanks for your insights here. It’s great to run into you over here at Doable Evangelism as well! I probably should post this on my own blog as well